Making America Great Again

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
I love how people overlook the 'Western European' I added in there, and reference to pagan cultures. It's like a blind spot.

It's like nothing exists after a person says Judeo-Christian to some people.

I actually didn't see that part, but Western European values weren't the first to come up with those laws either. Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on figured it out long before Europeans did.

I won't disagree that they did, but they didn't create America in their own cultures either. It took the enhancement of Judeo-Christian value to live and let live, to turn the other cheek, to tolerate people with different outlooks on life to make the American experiment work.

Other people like to point out local laws that were oppressive and bigoted. Those did happen. But they were not what contributed to making America great.

Anyways, I think Christianity teaches a pretty good message, the problem is that we don't have true Christians in the US, we have a bunch of people who have warped Christs message. Jesus was a socialist, what people worship today is Supply Side Jesus.

Separate topic, and I disagree. Jesus wanted people to give freely of themselves, not because government tells us to. Charity at the point of a sword or gun is not charity by free will.

Even your own post reflected this bias, you said "Don't Murder". That's not what Jesus or the Old Testament taught. They taught "Don't kill". There is a huge difference between the two.

No, it was 'Thou shall not murder.' Killing in self-defense or the defense of others, or in times of war is not a sin.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Ah, it's the same boring counterarguments in every interaction.

Maybe you should come up with new material.

The Judeo Christian legacy in in the Colonies and the US has been just as I said ... the use of state powers to enforce religious doctrine. I gave great examples of that.

I didn't "put any words" into your mouth. And I'm not wrong about my claim as anybody reading this can see.

As far as your "Western European values" you haven't given us any, just claimed they exist. All you told us about was your personally fabricated list of JC "Values" ... /shrug

Because those other continents and societies came up with whiz-bang freedoms, eh?

a reply to: Teikiatsu

New material?

Why, you'd still try to misrepresent the obvious ... you made claims about the glorious traditions of Western European Judeo Christian values and have been schooled not only by myself, but several others.

I'm bored now Teiki ... nite nite.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Western European ... would that be the Romans putting down slave revolts and massacring any one who resisted them?

And that Crucifixion thing ... that really must go both ways for you, eh?

Charlemagne's massacre of 4500 Saxons?

Perhaps drawing and quartering in Elizabethan England is what you had in mind?

The French massacre of the Huguenots?

The German ... well, that's too easy, eh?

What did you have in mind again for those glowing examples of liberty in the Western European tradition?

Because the other cultures were such utopias of liberty, enlightenment and learning, huh? Aztecs? Africaners? Japanese? Islam? Chinese? They were making *great* strides towards free societies after the Dark Ages. They never killed their fellow man, or subjugated them, or forced their beliefs on people *ever*....

And that was sarcasm, by the way.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Teikiatsu

New material?

Why, you'd still try to misrepresent the obvious ... you made claims about the glorious traditions of Western European Judeo Christian values and have been schooled not only by myself, but several others.

Not really, but whatever makes you feel better. G'nite.

Just for general knowledge ...

YOUR FALLACY IS TU QUOQUE

You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.

Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

YOUR FALLACY IS SPECIAL PLEADING

You moved the goalposts or made up an exception when your claim was shown to be false.

Humans are funny creatures and have a foolish aversion to being wrong. Rather than appreciate the benefits of being able to change one's mind through better understanding, many will invent ways to cling to old beliefs. One of the most common ways that people do this is to post-rationalize a reason why what they thought to be true must remain to be true. It's usually very easy to find a reason to believe something that suits us, and it requires integrity and genuine honesty with oneself to examine one's own beliefs and motivations without falling into the trap of justifying our existing ways of seeing ourselves and the world around us.

Help for the Needy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
But America is already great.
Great at war mongering
Great at spending on military equipment
Great at jailing people for victimless crimes
Great at waging war against its own people
Great at militarizing its police

And the greatest at fooling well meaning leftists to ensure all of those great things happen...while greatly eroding the things that were great.

Great leftist proverb:

Great are those who blind faithfully destroy all walls around them, for they need no house!

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
This entire thread is a great exercise in the uses and abuses of presentism, as we get to view the entirety of American history through the lenses of the most privileged generation of SJWs the world has ever seen.

Hey...wasn't me that chose MAGA as a mantra. And I do believe that we are getting a lot of diversity in the comments. As I'd hoped.

I think your question is completely valid. But sometimes a slogan is just a slogan.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Make America Great Again = Make Being White & Male Mean Something Again.

Sad to say if being white and male is all you've got - you ain't got much.

More like 'Make Judeo-Christian, Western-European Values prominent again'

Because let's face it, those values have shown to be the key to individual liberty and success.

The Chinese seem to be doing pretty good. The Indians (Hindus). Delusional - a bit.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

No, it was 'Thou shall not murder.' Killing in self-defense or the defense of others, or in times of war is not a sin.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure that the actual context was that if someone strikes you in the cheek, turn your face and offer the other cheek. Don't bust out a gun and put a cap in their ass.

Not to mention lines about the meek inheriting the Earth, opposed to going out and fighting.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

No, it was 'Thou shall not murder.' Killing in self-defense or the defense of others, or in times of war is not a sin.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure that the actual context was that if someone strikes you in the cheek, turn your face and offer the other cheek. Don't bust out a gun and put a cap in their ass.

Not to mention lines about the meek inheriting the Earth, opposed to going out and fighting.

Actually, I like your version better.

The reference to murder is to the actual Hebrew word used in the Torah in regard to "the Ten Commandments." It was indeed usually translated "murder" and there were other categories of killing that were not against the Law. Killing in war was never considered against God's law (in fact, He regularly commanded the Hebrews to kill all living things including children, but to save the young girls for wives if they chose.)

The turn the other cheek is from JC in the NT. He was a little less of a bastard than Daddy.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

The turn the other cheek is from JC in the NT. He was a little less of a bastard than Daddy.

Christian values are what I'm referring to. For a religion that's devoted to emulating Jesus, they sure do a bad job of acting like him. Then again, they just say no one's perfect and absolve themselves of failing to live up to their own ideals. The whole thing seems a little too convenient to me.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Gryphon66

The turn the other cheek is from JC in the NT. He was a little less of a bastard than Daddy.

Christian values are what I'm referring to. For a religion that's devoted to emulating Jesus, they sure do a bad job of acting like him. Then again, they just say no one's perfect and absolve themselves of failing to live up to their own ideals. The whole thing seems a little too convenient to me.

Bumper sticker (sound bite) relgion : christians aren't perfect just forgiven ...

a reply to: Aazadan

BEATS sawing off your head because YOU said that ,and AREN'T one, doesn't it?

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck



I think its when the 1 percent didn't own everything and there was still a middle class. It was a time when the economy was set up to serve more than one tenth of one percent of the population. And you could actually find a job that paid at least almost enough to live on without having to have a PHD. Now that only exists if you are lucky enough to come from an affluent family, or you can go to school and have 20 years of debt to pay off. For me it would probably be the time when my father could work his one job and support the family (hint, it was a long time ago). It was pre globalization. I really think that is the key for a lot of people. it was the time BEFORE globalization sent jobs overseas and ended a relatively easier life in this country. We had a space program and everyone had at least some reason to feel optimistic about the future. Does anyone feel optimistic now? Honestly? Now its much more of a struggle than it used to be in our memories.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Bumper sticker (sound bite) relgion : christians aren't perfect just forgiven ...

That comes across to me as an excuse to not even bother to try to live up to the values they claim to hold.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
BEATS sawing off your head because YOU said that ,and AREN'T one, doesn't it?

What? This makes no sense.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Good thread, if you think about it seriously. Good discussion, when current politics are avoided.

When was America great?

Well, it was sometime after the end of slavery around 1865, but before we lost our constitutional money (real silver and gold coinage) which started in 1934, and maybe even before with the founding of the US Federal Reserve in 1913.

There is a bit of a window there.

Was it right after the war with Spain that America was great, or right before that war in 1898? The war with Spain started the US as a colonial power. Are colonial powers great, or is it better NOT to be a colonial power?

I guess my opinion is that America was great sometime between 1865 and 1898, when we actually followed our own Constitution, which we have lost somewhere along the way.

The world was very different back then, but it is the principles that I am considering most, not technology.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Argumentum ad passions or "Appeal to emotion"..

It is an emotional appeal to everyone that has suffered under the rapid pace of change both technological and economic.

When was America great for you? "You" being principally the voters in several districts needed to carry PA, WI and Michigan.

Pre-90's Coal Mining and Manufacturing.

Since everyone knows that time can not reverse itself and technological advancement displacing manufacturing workers and coal miners will continue regardless of who is President the second lie was to blame brown people.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
MAGA has been the war cry. It needs a footnote, though...what's the baseline? When exactly was that?
Maybe it's just me, but I really couldn't tell you what particular era is being referenced. A little help here? And be nice!

Pre 1776?