For the undying 9/11 MORONIC JET FUEL ARGUMENT

originally posted by: samkent
The point is they have had 16 years to prove the collapse was not caused by plane and fire.
They have not done so.
Even the self proclaimed leader Gage has refused to say what actually caused the collapse.
There Alaska study has refused to say what they believed caused the collapse.

The truther movement is nothing more than a mobius strip.
It's getting old.

Oh come on Sam, the government has had 16 years to prove its story true, and has been unable to do so. All they have is practically every member of the 911 Commission saying in public they were set up to fail, and the blatant sophistry advanced by NIST.

Ignoring for a moment the government's strong reputation for mendacity, it's clear that the story doesn't wash on its own merits. That's what the PFT group has shown from the aviation perspective, and what the AE911 has shown from the structural engineering perspective.

The official story is impossible in its details, it is contradicted by facts and the laws of physics.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: kyleplatinum

Ok... True or False, is it possible 9/11 was an inside job?

Of course it's possible.

It is entirely possible that the US government conspired to help a group of terrorists drive airplanes into the twin towers and the Pentagon.

How about, instead of coming up with silly "reasons" why the tower collapses were caused by something other than airplanes flying into them, come up with evidence that the US government conspired to help a group of terrorists fly into them? Too hard?

Of course, it is also possible that, because of petty power plays, there was not enough coordination between US government intelligence agencies to anticipate what happened. Can you admit that possibility?

I can certainly admit that possibility, but the trouble is that the facts and evidence do not support that possibility.

The story doesn't wash in many ways. No airplane in PA. No airliner at the pentagon. At least one, likely 2, wrong airplanes at WTC. Explosion reported in the north tower before the airplane even hit. Forged FDR information from NTSB.

In short, a false flag so that the war on terror could be started.

originally posted by: Salander
No airplane in PA. No airliner at the pentagon.

FALSE and FALSE.

16 years later, and still completely false.

originally posted by: Salander

All they have is practically every member of the 911 Commission saying in public they were set up to fail,

Why is it that truthers never include this part of the quote ?

"What we could not have anticipated were the remarkable people and circumstances that would coalesce within and around the 9/11 Commission over the coming twenty months to enable our success."

Source

originally posted by: Salander


facts and evidence


Forged FDR information from NTSB.

What facts and evidence do you have to support this claim.

a reply to: Salander

Believe you as a complete stranger? Or the hundreds of CIVILIANS that attest to large commercial jets hitting WTC 1, WTC 2, the Pentagon, and the impact, wreckage, and human remains at shanksville.

You? who cannot even argue your pet nuclear device theories with any credibility.

By the way? Did you ever find any reference that miller walked out of a shanksville field and reported to the cameras no crashed flight 93? Is that your claim?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Salander

Believe you as a complete stranger? Or the hundreds of CIVILIANS that attest to large commercial jets hitting WTC 1, WTC 2, the Pentagon, and the impact, wreckage, and human remains at shanksville.

You? who cannot even argue your pet nuclear device theories with any credibility.

By the way? Did you ever find any reference that miller walked out of a shanksville field and reported to the cameras no crashed flight 93? Is that your claim?

Now you are citing eyewitnesses to seeing airliners crash into buildings.
The only thing left for them to roll out is the hologram hypothesis.... You know, where the eyewitnesses were just seeing holograms of planes.

Any time someone says there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon, I just assume they're trolling.

originally posted by: kyleplatinum

originally posted by: blackaspirin
a reply to: neutronflux

All very good points, I was just focusing on the audio and visual issue because that's what we were on at the moment.

Everything we're (all of us) discussing right now is premature anyway, if we're taking the over-arching assessment of everything that happened that day.

Just from a common sense perspective, the supposed Government Conspiracy that is claimed or heavily alluded to by the Truth Movement...it's the most needlessly complex, a million-things-could-go-wrong, way too many people involved, nonsense plan ever concocted.

Seriously, whatever Truthers think the end goal was, there's no way this ridiculous plan involving pre-planted explosives, faked phone calls, missile into the Pentagon and plant wreckage everywhere scheme - JUST FOR STARTERS - was even an inconvenient option, let alone a necessity.

Just imagine this plan being offered in a private meeting about how to get into a war with Iraq (or ANY motive at all) - it's the dumbest plot ever.

Listen, I'm not the bad guy, unless asking questions and questioning things make me bad. I don't care how many years its been since. I haven't been rude, I have never made fun of anybody or called names except maybe calling people dramatic or emotional.
It is ok if im wrong, I'll be ok, but I will always acknowledge when it feels weird in the gut as it has since the day I watched it live.

IMO, there are so many things that happened that day seemed off. I am definitely not the only one, there are tons.

I have never believed or stuck up for the holograms, space weapons or any of that type of stuff.

There has been some talk about true or false on the thread. Ok... True or False, is it possible 9/11 was an inside job?
The true and falses can easily work from both sides.

a million-things-could-go-wrong, way too many people involved, nonsense plan ever concocted.

If it was a "plan", a lot of things probably did go wrong.
Why does alot of people need to be involved? (Never did understand that argument)
Why would it be nonsense? The motive may never be known.

Anyways, I still think things happened to quick with too many coensidenses. Just my opinion though.

Re too many people involved, mistakes etc..When that argument is made against a conspiracy I always like to remind folks of the atom bomb and the thousands of compartmentalized people working on that project.
It is definitely not outside the realm of possibility for 9/11.

originally posted by: CajunMetal

Re too many people involved, mistakes etc..When that argument is made against a conspiracy I always like to remind folks of the atom bomb and the thousands of compartmentalized people working on that project.
It is definitely not outside the realm of possibility for 9/11.

And then we always have to remind you of this.

Atomic Spies

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: CajunMetal

Re too many people involved, mistakes etc..When that argument is made against a conspiracy I always like to remind folks of the atom bomb and the thousands of compartmentalized people working on that project.
It is definitely not outside the realm of possibility for 9/11.

And then we always have to remind you of this.

Atomic Spies

FTA: "Exactly what was given, and whether everyone on the list gave it are still matters of some scholarly dispute, and in some cases, what were originally seen as strong testimonies or confessions were admitted as fabricated in later years."

Yeah so anyways, a conspiracy/operation of considerable size can and has been pulled off before with next to no, or at least questionable fall out (see your link).

Point still stands that through compartmentalization an inside conspiracy like 9/11 is absolutely plausible.

And as a compliment to your spy, wasn't there a gentleman who called into a radio show to blow the whistle on an operation like 9/11 only to be silenced? So it's not like there weren't leaks if true.

The problem with the "Manhattan Project" analogy is not the number of participants, but the outcome.

The Manhattan Project was only building a new kind of bomb. The processes involved in gathering and sifting the raw materials were the real spade-work (all that Uranium being ever-so-slowly filtered into usable dregs, all that painstaking engineering to get the charges to fire correctly).

Essentially, it was a huge factory that only ever made a total of three products.

The 9/11 conspiracy (in its most amorphous form) had to:
1) Actively go out and interfere with at least seven complicated things (viz, three WTC buildings and four airliners) that were completely outside their control to begin with
2) Invent several new forms of technology (giant airborne holograms, exploding thermite and faked voice-synthesizers capable of fooling close relatives) and then keep them secret to this very day
3) Dispose of four planes'-worth of bystanders (to say nothing of the planes themselves) and God alone knows what else

... and co-ordinate everything so perfectly that it made the D-Day landings look like a village-hall's charity whist drive.

I'm no opera buff, but it puts me in mind of the stage directions at the climax of Wagner's Götterdämmerung, which are infamous among directors, musicians, and listeners alike. They are (in English) as follows:

Through the cloudbank, which has settled on the horizon, a red glow breaks out with increasing brightness. By its light, the three Rhinemaidens are seen, swimming in circles, merrily playing with the ring on the calmer waters of the Rhine, which has gradually returned to its bed. From the ruins of the fallen hall, the men and women, in great agitation, watch the growing fire-light in the heavens. When this reaches its greatest brightness, the hall of Valhalla is seen, in which gods and heroes sit assembled, just as Waltraute described them in the first act. Bright flames seize on the hall of the gods. When the gods are entirely hidden by the flames, the curtain falls.

No matter how you attempt to stage that, you are clearly never going to manage to replicate what Wagner saw in his mind's eye. And to this day, no-one ever has.

The 9/11 plot is like that. Written down, you can sort of imagine it coming together. And it could work quite well in a movie with a big SFX budget. But there's no way on God's Earth you could pull it off in real life, and only a raving lunatic would attempt it.

The problem isn't the number of people it would take, it's the number of unrelated things you'd have to orchestrate, and orchestrate so well that they came together perfectly, first time, with no rehearsal, in broad daylight, in front of an entire Goddamned city!

a reply to: CajunMetal

I always like to remind folks of the atom bomb and the thousands of compartmentalized people working on that project.

They were sequestered to keep their silence.
And it wasn't for 16 years either.

a reply to: audubon

orchestrate so well that they came together perfectly, first time, with no rehearsal, in broad daylight, in front of an entire Goddamned city!

They are given to believe in fantasies.

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: audubon

orchestrate so well that they came together perfectly, first time, with no rehearsal, in broad daylight, in front of an entire Goddamned city!

They are given to believe in fantasies.

Record breaking temperatures year after year, Cat 5 hurricanes flood Texas and then Florida, in front of the whole planet, and yet global warming is still a fantasy to some.

They've had decades of practice deceiving the public and orchestrating conspiracies.

originally posted by: lordcomac
Doesn't explain the pools of liquid metal in the rubble like, though...

of course, it was all shipped to China long before anyone could sample anything and get any real answers.

yep the pools there after two weeks.....the firefighters and workers were amazed at the sight....

a reply to: audubon

But there's no way on God's Earth you could pull it off in real life

You say that with such confidence. It wouldn't be that hard, especially if it was folks with major clout.

and only a raving lunatic would attempt it.

or a group of lunatics with power.

originally posted by: kyleplatinum
a reply to: audubon

But there's no way on God's Earth you could pull it off in real life

You say that with such confidence. It wouldn't be that hard, especially if it was folks with major clout.

What you're saying is that it's not hard to imagine the conspiracy if you also imagine the people capable of doing it. Which isn't a very sound foundation for building such an edifice as the 9/11 plot (whatever we mean by that).

For comparison, Vladimir Putin's "9/11" is alleged to be the bombing of four apartment blocks in 1999, which was blamed on Chechen rebels. Lots of people find this fairly credible, and it's easy to see why. You don't have to fly planes into buildings to blow them up and it doesn't take much organisational genius to plant bombs.

And you are never going to convince me that W Bush is more cunning than Putin!

a reply to: kyleplatinum

You say that with such confidence. It wouldn't be that hard, especially if it was folks with major clout.

You don't get the position of clout by dirtying your own hands.

You forget the crime was premeditated murder and New York had the death penalty back then.
So you figure hundreds of people signed on to this for a few bucks.
With a promise that no one would talk.
Ask the mobsters how well that works out.

You live in some fantasy world.

a reply to: samkent

You don't get the position of clout by dirtying your own hands.

Correct.... you get the clout, then get dirty.

This is how it always has been.