Chemtrails, Nye County, NV, 2-8-05

Should probably be op cit which is a Latin abbreviation for something, still never mind

... k

You really do sound like a proselytiser for the phone companies

Ooook making up more words again I see...
And no I am not attempting to make any persuasions regarding cellular carriers... I don't even own a cell phone. I despise them. I have just spent nearly my entire life tinkering or working with electronics (you know... that whole electron conductance field thingy) and radio technology, and there is only one thing that makes EM radiation dangerous... power output.

Do I really have to dredge up all the material produced by other researchers that bone your contentions

No doubt written by promotors of "chemtrails" and other activist nonsense.

And I don't accept that a chemtrails thread can't include other parts of the interactive network - these phenomena are all related

You're right on that one... see above.

dh says:

"Tell your wife she might step outside the box and research alternative explanations You want some info on death frequencies (and I might add new viri and bacteria - the same thing) No - you won't get it in establishment research."

All right, dh; I'll call your bluff.

Why don't you show us some "anti-establishment research" and let us discuss that here on this forum?

military contrail death valley, ca.
3-9-05:

Originally posted by desert rat
military contrail death valley, ca.
3-9-05:

Yup, that looks like a contrail alright

Originally posted by apc

Should probably be op cit which is a Latin abbreviation for something, still never mind

... k

You really do sound like a proselytiser for the phone companies

Ooook making up more words again I see...

Well it's in my dictionary - one who seeks to convert
Which is apt

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
dh says:

"Tell your wife she might step outside the box and research alternative explanations You want some info on death frequencies (and I might add new viri and bacteria - the same thing) No - you won't get it in establishment research."

All right, dh; I'll call your bluff.

Why don't you show us some "anti-establishment research" and let us discuss that here on this forum?

Well, yes, that's a fair enough challenge, but I feel I've gone off-topic enough on this thread, and though I've posted some stuff on other threads that answer that to some extent, I need to gather the material together and place it somewhere appropriate with a coherent theme
You want a whole freakin' diatribe?
God, why do we do this stuff?
I know my motives are clean

[edit on 11-3-2005 by dh]

Hey, Off_The_Wall

Go here before you try and act like you are an enlightened person. Please also look into the US Patents for chemical spray operations. Now go here and look at ALL of the photographic documentation.

I did not just follow some conspiritoral idea on the Internet, I witnessed them before I had ever heard of them. I was very sceptical at first but after seeing it done over and over in my area (mainly spring and fall) I had to believe my own eyes. Here is my story:

I learned about chemtrails not from the Internet or anyone else. I am an avid aviation enthusiast and am always looking to the sky for interesting aircraft, been doing it since I can remember. I have seen contrails spread into cloud-like formations; I have seen every type of contrail, in every weather situation that they are able to form. One summer in July of 1999 I was working as a car-salesman on a car lot that is on a high hill with a wonderful vista of the sky. I was feeling really good that day for I had made quite a bit of money selling cars. I parked a car, got out and looked up into the sky. I will never forget the feeling. The sky at the western horizon was filled with the strangest looking (contrails) I thought to myself what the ****! I had NEVER seen anything like it. They were not in normal jet traffic positions and were right next to each other. They were so thick, so opaque, and so un-natural, I looked for at least fifteen minutes trying to figure out what was going on. My mood instantly went from elation to a feeling of dread.

It took a few years before I had seen articles about chemtrails. It was instant recall, for I had not seen these anomalies from that time up to when I had read about them. For the average person that has not actually witnessed them it seems flaky. Another Internet hoaxes. A lot of people that claim they are seeing "Chemtrails" or actually seeing contrails. There are some parts of the country where you will never see them. There are other parts where you do. Since that day I have seen "chemtrails" become much more frequent. It is as hard to explain to someone that does not understand it, or has not witnessed it, as it would be to explain what color looks like to the blind. It affects my throat, sinus and respiratory system. I recognize the feeling now to the point that when I feel it I go outside and see that it is a "spray day" in my part of the country.

I have seen "chemtrails" that sometimes (my opinion) have mixed it improperly and created what looks like when you spill gasoline into a water puddle. A greenish rainbow that is in the water vapor of the trail. You would have to see it. It’s not just a light effect. It is very vibrant in color and looks very chemical-like.

In closing please do not shut your mind off to this. I cannot seem to articulate my thoughts on this like I would prefer to. It is real, I would bet my life on it. When it comes to looking to aircraft and contrails I am very experienced, a lifetimes worth.

P.S. Lately I have been having a problem with my nervous system. It feels like pins and needles all over my skin. This only happens on days that there has been excessive Chem spraying. My doctor is trying to figure out what is going on with my nervous system. I think its the aluminium and barium salts that are in the atmosphere from our chemical soup.

Code 3 says:

"Hey, Off_The_Wall"

I see by your registry date and number of posts that you’re a newbie here. Welcome to ATS.

My handle, by the way, is” Off_the_Street”, not “Off_the_wall”.

”Go here before you try and act like you are an enlightened person.”

That’s Jim Phelp’s web site – it’s been around for a long time, and goes on and on and on… As far as I know, no one takes him seriously, because Jim Phelps is not a scientist or inventor or anything like that. I have researched his name and did not see anything about him other than the fact that he “studied electrical engineering” (but it didn’t say where of if he even got a degree) and I have looked through several professional journals and did not see any articles published by him.

If you have any information on him that talks about his degrees and his published papers, please let me know; I haven’t found any of them.

Personally, I think he’s a fraud; but it’s not because he doesn’t have any credentials – it’s that his claims are just goofy, with no evidence to back them up. I am certainly not a mad scientist myself, but I do have a couple pieces of college-degree paper, including one that says I’m some sort of engineer; and I’ve been working in the aerospace business for about thirty years. I may not come up with any earth-shattering ideas, but I like to think I can recognize what the Russians call “boolsht” when I see it, and that’s what I see on Phelp’s site – boolsht.

”Please also look into the US Patents for chemical spray operations.”

There are a lot of patents for all different kinds of spraying. There are also patents for a device that will automatically tip your hat to a lady as she passes by, and one that uses nuclear weapons to blast out harbors and canals. Some of these patents for spraying, including the ones behind the Air Force’s MASS sprayer on C-130s and others for spraying fire-retardant, are actually used today.

But the fact that someone patented an idea to spray aluminized particles to keep the earth cool is certainly not the same as saying they’re actually doing it. I can think of several really obvious reasons why, even if the aluminum thing were feasible (which I don’t believe it is) it’s not being used. First among these is that a radar-reflecting cloud above the United States would just about completely eliminate the early-warning defense capabilities of the country, or the ability of the FAA to keep track of the commercial air raft in the sky.

Patents aren't evidence; they're just the government saying that the idea is novel and the idea is protected from other use. Not that the idea makes any commercial sense.

”Now go here and look at ALL of the photographic documentation.

I’ve seen more pictures of purported “chem-trails” in the five years I’ve been following the hoax than I can shake a stick at. All I see are interestingly shaped contrails, all of which can be explained by perfectly normal (although dynamic) atmospheric conditions and a basic application of atmospheric physics.

Your thousand pictures of persistent contrails are no more “evidence” for the existence of a Huge Secret Nefarious Plot than a thousand pictures of Christmas presents are “evidence” for the existence of Santa Claus.

”I did not just follow some conspiritoral idea on the Internet, I witnessed them before I had ever heard of them. I was very sceptical at first but after seeing it done over and over in my area (mainly spring and fall) I had to believe my own eyes. Here is my story:”

Think about this. You see these “chem.-trails” in the spring and fall, which is when typically there is the most moisture in the sky (at least in the temperate latitudes). You will not get persistent contrails unless you have temperatures of below minus 40 degrees and saturated air. There is a better chance of having those conditions obtain in the spring and the fall than there is at other times.

Yet it’s the summer, when the planet is tilted so that the Northern Hemisphere is closer to vertical in respect to the Sun and its UV rays; and winter, which is when the ozone layer is thinner, that you would think that any sort of amelioration, like “chem.-trails” would be used, right?

So why, if you consider “chem.-tails” to be an amelioration against UV would they appear just when, statistically speaking, we don’t need them?

”I have seen "chemtrails" that sometimes (my opinion) have mixed it improperly and created what looks like when you spill gasoline into a water puddle. A greenish rainbow that is in the water vapor of the trail. You would have to see it. It’s not just a light effect.”

It is just a light effect; it’s called “refraction”.

Code 3, I would ask you, if you have not already done so, to read my articles and subsequent discussion in the thread entitled “The Chemtrail Hoax” located in this forum at www.abovetopsecret.com...

I believe it will address your comments in detail.

Regards,

Off_the_street.

dh said (two weeks ago, in answer to my challenge that he come up with some "anti-establishment evidence):

Well, yes, that's a fair enough challenge, but I feel I've gone off-topic enough on this thread, and though I've posted some stuff on other threads that answer that to some extent, I need to gather the material together and place it somewhere appropriate with a coherent theme.

I am anxiously awaiting your posts on the subject.

"You want a whole freakin' diatribe?"

No, I do not want a diatribe; Lord knows I see enough of them without asking for more.

What I want you to do is to post material on real research that the "chem-trail" believers have performed, including such things like:

o In-situ collection of "chem-trails" with subsequent examination by a laboratory with the usual conditions: chain of evidentiary custody, name and address of the laboratory and its investigators, a detailed description of the collection and examination methodology, reduction and presentation of the evidence with a description of the appropriate statistical techniques used (ANOVA, chi-square, etc.).

o Correlation between appearance of "chem-trails" and admission or presentation of patients with cardiopulmonary or other complaints at hospitals, clinics, doctors office, etc, taking into consideration a 95% Z-value to eliminate random sampling error, as well as compensation for the time and distance the putative pathogens or chemicals would take to reach the ground from the time they were first seen at 30,000 feet.

No diatribes, dh. Just research.

Real research.

The "chem.-trail” hoax has gone on for over five years now, and I would think that, in that time, someone, -- somewhere -- would be able to present at least one sound piece of research to show any evidence – or even statistical correlation – for the very existence of “chem.-trails”. So far hone has shown up.

I look forward to hearing from you.

I should never have directed you to another persons opinion. I should only state what I have witnessed myself. When I stated they are mostly in the spring and fall, they are also seen in the summer and winter.

I have been looking to the sky for a very long time, I am not a scientist, my college consists of Fire science, and being a paramedic. I do though know a LOT about aircraft, dewpoints relitive humidity and weather.

I know a lot of web sites are full of opinions that are rather flaky. I an only go by my own experience with jumping from aircraft, flying them and being a fan of aviation in general. Please respect that and do not bring up what a contail is and how they form. I know about this extensivly.

The burden of proof lies in your hands. Please explain to me how a series of contrails can be made at 7:00 am (I witness over ten aircraft flying abreast all the time doing this. I am not saying everyday. These aircraft doing this have been witnessed by me at nearly every different typ of weather pattern you can imagine. I dont know if this has something to do with it but I live in a city that is the home of Dow Chemical. Anyway they form up at early morning, I then keep an eye on them troughout the day to see the trail become wider and wider until it completly fills the sky with an overcast day. You can still see the ripples in the overcast sky where the aerosol operation first began from each individaul aircraft until it gets to dark out to see very well.

Over 12 to 15 hours depending the time of year (meaning the time the sky is visible enough to make this clear. It is not just the time but the way the wind patterns interact with the aircraft emissions. They look like they are about to drip, it is a very different look than a normal contrail.

I will give you the benifit of the doubt that you either dont live in a part of the country/world that is not recieving the chemical treatment, or you dont get out into the outdoors enough to notice.

Believe this old firefighter my friend, there is something funny going on. I know I havnt made my point clear enough and have left out a number of things that I notice in the difference between chemical operations and real contrails. It is like, to me, trying to explain music to the deaf. Unless you know what to look for, you just keep on fooling yourself.

Regards, and respect, Code 3

I have read you thread about chemtrails and resect your opinion. I dont have a lot of time right now (I am cooking my infamous firehouse chile!). I think I can answer a few of your ideas.

First about the aerospce industry and different pilots having to be in on the scheme. Its all about socail ridicule, no professional is going to put his career on the line or have himself be ridiculed by his peers. It is how the human mind works, no one wants to be different.

I have dicussed this in private with a number of aerospace engineers whom have admitted to me that what they have seen is not contrails, but have no explination for what it is.

I agree with you about the logistics, any sane person with an above room temperture IQ would do the same. I have no explination fot the logistical problem, I just know in my heart and mind what I see. I am sure that in the 1800's not many could explain the logistics of performing the invaion of Normandy in WW2. Just because we cant explain it doesnt mean that it is not happening.

No more time the chile needs attention!!

Im fairly drunk at the moment, thus my reasoning for venturing into these threads in the first place ... buuuuuut
My mind is not closed to new ideas.. it is closed to sheer and utter stupidity.
I have seen the sky full of thick dark contrails that lasted for hours.. seen the same sky become overcast with thick disgusting clouds.. and didn't freak out and start imagining nonexistant physical symptoms (or maybe the tingling of the skin isn't so nonexistant, but merely the result of a rather large brain malformation).
Why did I think nothing of this? Because I knew that for the contrails to last so long and be so dense, the air must already be very saturated. Why did I think nothing of the succeeding cloud layer? Because for the air to be so dense with moisture, it was obvious that a pressure system was at work and the moisture was soon to be condensing.
Do I ever ponder the contrails I see when I first wake up in the morning? No... there's no reason contrails wouldn't form when the Sun is down. Why wouldn't they?
As a testament to the nievity of the gullible, I have yet to see a single response to the argument I have put forth about the same planes crisscrossing the sky with trails... it would seem that when a fool reads something that actually makes sense, they choose to ignore it. This seems to be the widespread doctrine for every bit of clear and definitive evidence that the "chemtrail" idea is total nonsense, as it has been ignored and dropped by those who wish not to see it.

Oh, and

The burden of proof lies in your hands.

ERRRRRRRRRR.

Last I checked when you are trying to disprove what is already accepted as fact, YOU must provide the evidence, the proof, the incontrovertible reality of your beliefs.

And for the record, I am a mechanical engineer with a focus in electrical engineering. If you live in the US, chances are good that fairly regularly and without even giving it a second thought, you use a product that I designed and built.

... Do I get anything free with my test drive?




[edit on 24-3-2005 by apc]

You have no reason to speak to me in such a vile way. I have spent quite a few years saving lives, do you have what it takes to bust through a door to a burning building wearing a resperator beause you needed to save a life? You talk to me the way you do is a disgrace and shows what a disgusting level of animal some people have let themselves become. I have to shake off the feeling you give to the world, so I can still feel putting my life on the line for a stranger is still worth it!

I feel sorry for you.

That little rant of apc's reminds me of why I stopped going to this forum. I wont waste another second being here.

Goodbye

Originally posted by Code 3
That little rant of apc's reminds me of why I stopped going to this forum. I wont waste another second being here.

Goodbye

Don't sweat it, sweetheart, have one of mine! Seriously, don't sweat it. We can't say for certain because we do not definitely know. Please don't let the "discussion" upset you. I know it can be very frustrating at times.

[grr]

[edit on 24-3-2005 by apc]

I make such statements in response to the pathetic attempts to attack fellow members of this board who posess even the most basic understanding of what is up, what is down, and why the sky is blue. However those you attack (and as expected, ignore) have a much greater than basic understanding of how reality works.

And I have the greatest respect for the men and women who save the lives of those trapped in buildings ablaze, but I wouldn't trust them with the life of a fish if it depended on their ability to add.

To maintain the context of this thread, I restate my previous factoid that it is the responsibility of those opposed to the generally accepted truths, to present evidence that contradicts what is already known. As has also been pointed out many times, this evidence has NEVER been presented.

Originally posted by apc
And I have the greatest respect for the men and women who save the lives of those trapped in buildings ablaze, but I wouldn't trust them with the life of a fish if it depended on their ability to add.

Look pal an Idiot Savant can add like a cray super computer. An adding machine that is given away for free when buy something like a darn flashlight can add.

Try thinking in the abstract, can you achieve this or are you just someone that stuck his nose to the grindstone in school and learned your profession like a parrot?

Dont even try and put down the brave souls that man this worlds greatest most noble profession! Dont even think it. Its wrong, you dont know these men and women. They are brave not beause they are stupid, they are brave because they see something more important than some material chase the freeking cheese game.

An electrical engineer is a career that CAN be acheived by a mindless parrot, memory is not what makes a high IQ. Go **** up a rope.

Next time you put down Firefighters I hope you remember the 343 souls that marched into those buildings on 911. Do YOU have any idea the fear that rushes though your body and mind when you hear that fire roaring at you like some monster?!?

Damn you, the fear these men and women feel is overcome because of this:

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear"

We fear everytime we here the tones go off for our firehouse to respond. We do it anyway, not because we are stupid, but because we are caring people!!!!

Did I say firefighters are stupid? I don't think so. As anyone who thinks they know things knows, even Einstein failed 7th grade math.

And yes, I have known several firemen and a few firewomen, with my previously posted statement standing.

Also, just to have some fun, did I say I was an electrical engineer? No. Apparently reading ranks right up there with logic and reason.

So far, all I have seen coming from the "chemtrail"ists, is:
"They're spraying stuff which makes me feel funny." (if you wanna get technical often it's more like "[their, there] spraying stuff")
"I don't understand what I see so it MUST be..." (might as well blame it on the gods with that one)
"I am a/an [insert whatever profession here] so therefor I know they are up to something." (this one usually amounts to "I am a swimming pool cleaner so therefor the big tsunami occurred because...")

Why has no evidence been presented? Because it doesn't exist. Why have those who seek to convince others of their beliefs failed to even attempt to gather such evidence? Because it means their computer chair might get cold. Can't have that.

So what are we left with? A boatload of fabricated fiction with rebuttals that go unanswered.