The 40 Lental days and the gospels

I have a number of questions on this, anyone care to address them?


Where is this to be found within the gospels?

Why is it observed?

Why the food restrictions?

Why the restrictive differences in observance for children?

What is with the ashes on Ash Wednesday?

What does a Sunday have to do with palms and the gospels?

Why was lent important to Athanasius?

Is this a pagan observation?

Edited the header as it seems my fingers were thinking one thing I was thinking another. I hope it works.








[edit on 2/10/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

With all those why questions it seems as if I rubbed off on you......

Plumbo

I'll do my best. But remember, google is your friend.

1) Observing Lent is not found in the Gospels.

2) The 40 days of Lent signifies the 40 days Jesus spent in the desert being tempted by Satan.

3) Fasting is a part of Lent. Again, the desert and Jesus. He fasted those 40 days.

4) Muslims have a similar difference for children and Ramadan. Children aren't considered adults in the eyes of the Church until Confirmation.

5) Ashes remind us of our mortality. It's symbolic.

6) I assume you are referring to Palm Sunday. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Sunday of Passover. People lined the streets waving palms at him. Why palms? Don't know. I'm assuming something symbolic again.

7) don't know who that is.

8) Are you serious?

here is some reading to help answer your questions
www.catholiceducation.org...
www.whitestonejournal.com...

some good reading. Lent is actaully a tradition during the church year to mimic the time between jesus's babtizisum, and the start of hist ministery

Originally posted by Plumbo
With all those why questions it seems as if I rubbed off on you......

ROTFL! Showing your hand so soon, Plumbo? It was known by the time you made your second post.

A bob and weaver I am not, which was what your plethora of questions amounted to in terms of a curriculum vitae, is that not so, Plumbo?

So what is your answer in response to my questions? Let's see how you fare.

Originally posted by gboudx
I'll do my best. But remember, google is your friend.

what did we do before Google?

1) Observing Lent is not found in the Gospels.

Then why the observance?

2) The 40 days of Lent signifies the 40 days Jesus spent in the desert being tempted by Satan.

What does this have to do with ending at his death, palms and ashes?

3) Fasting is a part of Lent. Again, the desert and Jesus. He fasted those 40 days.

What does this have to do with his death, palms and ashes?

4) Muslims have a similar difference for children and Ramadan. Children aren't considered adults in the eyes of the Church until Confirmation.

We are talking Christianity.

5) Ashes remind us of our mortality. It's symbolic.

How so, and who decreed this? Light reminds me of my immortality.

6) I assume you are referring to Palm Sunday. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Sunday of Passover. People lined the streets waving palms at him. Why palms? Don't know. I'm assuming something symbolic again.

So then, are you saying that palm Sunday and ash wednesday coincides with his tempation by the devil and his 40 day fast?

7) don't know who that is.

He, was a fellow who argued to keep the Lenten season.

8) Are you serious?

Absolutely I am.

[edit on 2/10/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by Jehosephat
here is some reading to help answer your questions
some good reading. Lent is actaully a tradition during the church year to mimic the time between jesus's babtizisum, and the start of hist ministery

Thank you for the links, I hope you don't mind if I don't read them, considering that that makes no sense, since he was baptised first, then spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness, after which he walked about Galilee gathering his desciples, then taught in synagogues, then made his way to Cana for a wedding feast. Which I am sure took more than 24 hours after his leaving the wilderness, and therefore more than 40 days.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by Plumbo
With all those why questions it seems as if I rubbed off on you......

ROTFL! Showing your hand so soon, Plumbo? It was known by the time you made your second post.

A bob and weaver I am not, which was what your plethora of questions amounted to in terms of a curriculum vitae, is that not so, Plumbo?

So what is your answer in response to my questions? Let's see how you fare.

Do you really think I waste my time on anyone?
Is that all you have to say is that you aren't a bob n weaver?
You are a bob and weaver because it's the same as a dodger? Comeon, put a little more effort into my questions...there is a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.
I don't think I was wrong about you.
I don't think you're not the truth-seeker I think you are.




lPlumbo

[edit on 11-2-2005 by Plumbo]

The Season of Lent I hope this will help you understand about lent and the way is celebrated by different churches and groups and the traditions of it.

Theme:
Retreating Into the Wilderness with Jesus
Dates:
Lent is a forty-day period before Easter. It begins on Ash Wednesday. We skip Sundays when we count the forty days, because Sundays commemorate the Resurrection. Lent begins on 9 February 2005 and ends on 26 March 2005.
In the Roman Catholic Church, Lent officially ends at sundown on 24 March (Holy Thursday), with the beginning of the mass of the Lord’s Supper.
Colors:
In most churches, the decorations are purple or blue, royal colors to prepare for the King. You can read more about color in worship
The East:

In Orthodox churches, this season is called the Great Lent. It begins on Clean Monday.
Special Days:
Ash Wednesday, 9 February 2005
The Annunciation, 25 March 2005

Lent is a season of soul-searching and repentance. It is a season for reflection and taking stock. Lent originated in the very earliest days of the Church as a preparatory time for Easter, when the faithful rededicated themselves and when converts were instructed in the faith and prepared for baptism. By observing the forty days of Lent, the individual Christian imitates Jesus’ withdrawal into the wilderness for forty days. All churches that have a continuous history extending before AD 1500 observe Lent. The ancient church that wrote, collected, canonized, and propagated the New Testament also observed Lent, believing it to be a commandment from the apostles. (See The Apostolic Constitutions, Book V, Section III.)
If your church does not observe Lent, you can find out why.
You can read about fasting, which is a spiritual discipline that does not involve starvation or dehydration. You can also read Honest to God for an explanation of what we accomplish by observing Lent.
You can find out about Lenten fasting during medieval times. The link even includes a very interesting recipe!

The Western Church
Because Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, we skip over Sundays when we calculate the length of Lent. Therefore, in the Western Church, Lent always begins on Ash Wednesday, the seventh Wednesday before Easter.

In many countries, the last day before Lent (called Mardi Gras, Shrove Tuesday, Carnival, or Fasching) has become a last fling before the solemnity of Lent. For centuries, it was customary to fast by abstaining from meat during Lent, which is why some people call the festival Carnival, which is Latin for farewell to meat.

The Eastern Church
The Eastern Church does not skip over Sundays when calculating the length of the Great Lent. Therefore, the Great Lent always begins on Clean Monday, the seventh Monday before Easter, and ends on the Friday before Palm Sunday—using of course the eastern date for Easter. The Lenten fast is relaxed on the weekends in honor of the Sabbath (Saturday) and the Resurrection (Sunday). The Great Lent is followed by Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday, which are feast days, then the Lenten fast resumes on Monday of Holy Week. Technically, in the Eastern Church, Holy Week is a separate season from the Great Lent.






[edit on 11-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by gboudx


6) I assume you are referring to Palm Sunday. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Sunday of Passover. People lined the streets waving palms at him. Why palms? Don't know. I'm assuming something symbolic again.

with tongue-in-cheek...
recall that he (Jesus) rode a donkey or ass into the city of Jerusalem.
perhaps those palm fronds were handy instruments for brushing away
the inevitable telltale signs of a beast-of-burdens' passing.? AKA Road-Apples.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by Jehosephat
here is some reading to help answer your questions
some good reading. Lent is actaully a tradition during the church year to mimic the time between jesus's babtizisum, and the start of hist ministery

Thank you for the links, I hope you don't mind if I don't read them, considering that that makes no sense, since he was baptised first, then spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness, after which he walked about Galilee gathering his desciples, then taught in synagogues, then made his way to Cana for a wedding feast. Which I am sure took more than 24 hours after his leaving the wilderness, and therefore more than 40 days.

The church year is a year long, it covers the birth and death of jesus every year, and everyhting in between, as well as pentecost.

It is obviously uyou only want answeres spoon fed to you instead of forming your own opinion. Most other people at this point whoul have reaseached it themselves, and i was nice enough to give you 2 links that explained the church SEASON

Originally posted by gboudx
1) Observing Lent is not found in the Gospels.

2) The 40 days of Lent signifies the 40 days Jesus spent in the desert being tempted by Satan.

3) Fasting is a part of Lent. Again, the desert and Jesus. He fasted those 40 days.

4) Muslims have a similar difference for children and Ramadan. Children aren't considered adults in the eyes of the Church until Confirmation.

5) Ashes remind us of our mortality. It's symbolic.

6) I assume you are referring to Palm Sunday. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Sunday of Passover. People lined the streets waving palms at him. Why palms? Don't know. I'm assuming something symbolic again.

7) don't know who that is.

8) Are you serious?

I knew little about this until your post. Education most appreciated!

Traditions are great, but Lent really serves no purpose. When Jesus died for our sins to save us, the only conditions where that you accept that he is the son of God and our saviour.

So fasting is not necessary. In fact here in Louisiana, since you aren't suppose to eat meat on Friday's, the big thing is pigging out on seafood on Fridays. So much for fasting?

Originally posted by Plumbo
Do you really think I waste my time on anyone?

When it is spent on me, no, it is your education.

Is that all you have to say is that you aren't a bob n weaver?

Yes and no.

Comeon, put a little more effort into my questions...there is a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.

Your questions? By that you mean the convoluted mess you described as a universe in your response?

I don't think I was wrong about you.
I don't think you're not the truth-seeker I think you are.

Ah, and there we have it. What, I am a truth-seeker, just not of your view of the truth? I can tell you now, no! There is no truth in your subversive message. And what is it that you are out to prove exactly, other than I make you uncomfortable? Now if you have a problem with me my friend, then understand this: trying to entice me into a yahoo type battle will not work, use U2U if you have a grievance, I will consider your dalliance.

As I have stated, you were pegged, accept then my shadow, contribute constructively or waste your fonts trying to get my attention.

Well thank you for your responses, especially jehosophat who comes nigh with spoons of want.

The truth behind the 40 days lies behind obscurity. It has nothing to do with the 40 days of his so called retreat, or palms from his days, or ashes from his days.

The ashes are a commemoration of death, an age old mock Jewish, yes I said, mcok Jewish, ritual. Refer Esther.

The palms are thrown in from his ride on the ass on the Sunday before Jesus commemorated his final passover feast.

The 40 days in the wilderness has nothing to do with it, unless of course someone decided to mix and match. But all Christians celebrate this anyway not knowing really why.

First to prove that point:

Irenaeus on Polycarp: For the controversy is not merely as regards the day, but also as regards the form itself of the fast. For some consider themselves hound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day. And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy,...

And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way],

Even 1900 years ago they had no idea why, but as sheep follows. I was not surprised to actually see the reason posted today although it was posted for other purposes.

The NT gives us the impression that Jesus was celebrating passover with his disciples, walked into Gethsemene, was arrested and the next day condemned and killed. That was not how the law worked though.

The supposed prophecy of betrayal was no prophecy. It was done (read Josephus) and can be clearly seen for example in Matthew 16:17; Mark 8; Luke 9, and John 6. The verdict of death already passed in Matthew 26; Mark 10; Luke 18 and John 7.

The Sanhedrin custom when condemning someone to death was to issue a proclamation 40 days in advance whereby witnessess attesting to the innocence of the condemned are allowed to step forward and so save them.


The 40 days was this day of condemnation, the ashes to mourn, and the palms, because the early church fathers had no clue what the heck it was about.






Well then, the forty days ends

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Comeon, put a little more effort into my questions...there is a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.

Your questions? By that you mean the convoluted mess you described as a universe in your response?

yup.

I don't think I was wrong about you.
I don't think you're not the truth-seeker I think you are.

Ah, and there we have it. What, I am a truth-seeker, just not of your view of the truth? I can tell you now, no! There is no truth in your subversive message. And what is it that you are out to prove exactly, other than I make you uncomfortable? Now if you have a problem with me my friend, then understand this: trying to entice me into a yahoo type battle will not work, use U2U if you have a grievance, I will consider your dalliance.

(clearing throat) ok.

As I have stated, you were pegged, accept then my shadow, contribute constructively or waste your fonts trying to get my attention.

ouch!

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween


The Sanhedrin custom when condemning someone to death was to issue a proclamation 40 days in advance whereby witnessess attesting to the innocence of the condemned are allowed to step forward and so save them.

But you forget the Jewish leaders wanted to put Jesus to death, but couldn't becasue of being under roman law. And subject to Roman rule. That is why they brought him up to pilate with the false claim that he was a King of the jews (and obviously something to endanger the Roman Empire) in short the Jewish leaders claim Jesus was creating an uprising against Ceaser "WE have no king other then ceaser" shows the hieght of thier hypocracy. Since Pilate could not find anything wrong with Jesus he wanted to give him back. At this point things get foggy, but the Jewish leaders were starting a riot and the only way Pilate could ease it, was to Crusify Jesus.

Nut shell, i probly left out some details, but it was not the Jewish leaders that actaully performed the capital punishment, but Romans acting on behalf of them, under Roman law.

If you read anything abotu the Church year you will understand the leten seasons better.

Advent- Preapring for the birth of Christ, and the Second coming of Christ
Christmas- the birth of Christ
Epiphany (to show) is a season of light, when Jesus Christ is shown to be the light of the world
Lent- Lent is a forty-day season of preparation for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. During Lent we follow Jesus from his adult ministry through his suffering during Holy Week and his crucifixion and death on Good Friday.
Easter- Easter is a celebration of Jesus' resurrection from the dead
Pentecost- Pentecost focuses on the Holy Spirit and the way in which it touches everyone in the world.

It is a Tradition, there is really nothing special about it except as a guide for Church services. Nothing in it is mandatroy.

But then what better way to show thanks for salvation then going to Church.. too many people do it for completly opposite reasons

Originally posted by JehosephatBut you forget the Jewish leaders wanted to put Jesus to death, but couldn't becasue of being under roman law. And subject to Roman rule.

I do, do I? Then this makes the claim that he was killed false wouldn’t you say?

That is why they brought him up to pilate with the false claim that he was a King of the jews

This statement shows no insight into the politics of Jerusalem. Rome was the ruler yes, however the Sanhedrin on matters of their own people did try them and did present them to the governor with their verdict. Sanhedrin law required the 40 day notice. This is not something you can argue I am afraid, it is fact. Further, the governor was required to send the criminal to Rome for trial if the penalty involved dealth. That too if you knew the history cannot be argued. Now reflect on Peter’s and Paul’s stories and tell me if you do not see a disconnect when it came to Jesus. Something is wrong with the story as is written.

And I frankly don’t care who carried out the punishment, that is not the issue. The gospels relate a story to you that is part fact and much fiction, it tells you that he stood before the Sanhedrin as that was a requirement, and it tells this to you from a biased point of view as well as to the details. Do you expect anyone telling their tale to not spin it in their favour? the man was a seditionist, a rebel and from I can glean a man who fought against both Jews and Romans.

And thank you for the advice on the Lenten season, however, your tales are not true, I have shown you that. It is a tradition with a start that no Christian can attest to with any validity. It smacks of paganism incorporated into Jewish tradition. If you wish to call the early church fathers who are also directly responsible for Christian doctrine, liars, then you have a problem don’t you? So, it is not me who needs to understand, but you.

And I know that you believe every word written in the gospels, I do not, so quoting them to prove your case is akin to quoting the white rabbit to prove Alice really visited wonderland. The extant writings tell a whole new story, and I cannot make you believe, nor do I care if you don't, I care only to bring to light all the documents and truths long hidden from the public, and unless you or anyone else are willing to read about the history of Christianity then you absorb yourselves in that fable willing. Times they are a changing, and that word and those documents are being spread by thousands, far faster and wider than any press can ever hope to.

i find it interesting you start off asking US questions, then at the end you ignore and attack some replies and come up with your own take intead of doing so at the first place

ashes are also used in a ritual of repentance, along with sack cloths and fasting

I fail to see when the Sanhedrin issued the condemnation. All other instances you quoted were Jesus prophesing

Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

All future tense in that quote

so you argument is based on Jesus not prophesing, but allready being being given notice by the Priest and elders?

40 days is a holy number and appears many times in the bible, it is very difficult to tell if it is figurative or litteral, but it hast to at least mean "More then a month" I dont lose much sleep not knowing the differance, nor do I care much where the lenten season orginates. To me the only things that really matters are faith, scripture and grace

Originally posted by Jehosephat
i find it interesting you start off asking US questions, then at the end you ignore and attack some replies and come up with your own take intead of doing so at the first place

ashes are also used in a ritual of repentance, along with sack cloths and fasting

Obviously it was your smiley answering for you, for surely you did read Esther, understood it and realized that they were used for mourning, didn't you? But why not state what else they stand for? By God to cause boils and sores on man and beast and were also the remnants of the burnt offerings?

Of course you fail to see when the Sanhedrin issued the condemnation, as it is evident you are unfamiliar with the good book. What part of this do you not comprehend?

…all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.

You are advised to study these times in Jerusalem before you debate. For the chief priests and elders are the Sanhedrin.

And what part of this is escaping your understanding?

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing…he took water and washed his hands…saying I am innocent of the blood of this just person…

And if you really believe that Pilate stood on his balcony or some such thing and spoke to a mass gathering of Jews, then I suggest you reflect on the fact that Jesus was just one more man charged as being a criminal and brought to court, where I highly doubt the roman Governors hauled them in front of the public. And if you are convinced he did, then you must believe that the only Jews who showed up that day were those that hated him, and all those multitudes of followers he supposedly had went about their business and couldn't give a care.

So you decide which way you want to go with your belief. You can choose delusion or logic.

My, it is truly sad that so much information has been placed in ATS and it needs to be repeated over and over. The text which you quote is taken straight from the Apocalypse of Peter, an accepted gospel right up to the end of the second century. Those words are from a vision Peter had after Jesus was already dead.. More proof that the gospel you think you know has been twisted, manipulated and perverted. Indulge yourself and research it either outside of ATS or under my posts.

40 days being a holy number does not change the fact that it pertains to the 40 days of notice. And while you may think I asked the questions because I did not know, it should be obvious that I asked it to show just what Christians did not know.


[edit on 2/13/05 by SomewhereinBetween]