North Korea Has Never Attacked the US, but the US Has Killed an Estimated 4-10 Million Koreans

How many Koreans has Kim killed?

a reply to: Xtrozero

How many will North Korea's ICBM kill?
There ARE no other equations than that and their first artillery hit all else is decided.

originally posted by: TerminalVelocity
This is the History forum. Not the I'm Going To Make Crap Up forum.

I worry as to the level of revisionism and fallacy in the OP.

The real threat to North Korea is their development of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them; this being done while the population starves and China and Russia profit.

The Korean War started when the North attempted to invades the South. The South was supported by the UN with USA initially in situ. The North was supported by the Chinese and Russians. Note the war was initiated by North Korea (communist) supported by China and Russia.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

defense? what is north korea defending? nobody has threatened north korea, north korea has nothing that anybody wants, they are a cave dwelling people in the 21st century they have nothing to defend against.

the opposite of love is not hate it`s indifference and north korea has been treated with indifference for decades and like an unruly child they demand attention even if it`s negative attention.

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

Citation demonstrating direct proof that the US used chemical and biological weapons?

The issue of chemical weapons being used during the Korean War has been hotly debated for decades. You already knew that, tho...

I don't have *direct proof* of chemical and biological weapon used by the US in Korean War that can be verified the same way Agent Orange was used in the Vietnam War or the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan were. But you already knew that, tho...

It sure is not in the link you provided.

Most of what I typed is not in the link I provided...

However, since you asked, here are some *citations* to be contemplated with a discerning mind. That is if your willing to invest the time to weigh things out for yourself:

‘“Practically every U.S. fighter plane that has flown into Korean air carried at least two napalm bombs,” Chemical Officer Townsend wrote in January 1951. About 21,000 gallons of napalm hit Korea every day in 1950. As combat intensified after China’s intervention, that number more than tripled (…) a total of 32,357 tons of napalm fell on Korea, about double that dropped on Japan in 1945. Not only did the allies drop more bombs on Korea than in the Pacific theater during World War II – 635,000 tons, versus 503,000 tons – more of what fell was napalm …" - Robert M. Neer

Napalm: An American Biography by Robert M. Neer

Harvard University Press: www.hup.harvard.edu...

Good mind opening book for doubters. Try to read it without bias.

A little background about Columbia University Professor, Robert Neer:

www.bobneer.com...

www.bobneer.com...

Also: valtinsblog.blogspot.ca...

How The U.S. Waged Germ Warfare in the Korean War And Denied It Ever Since: www.globalresearch.ca...

This is the History forum. Not the I'm Going To Make Crap Up forum.

But most of history IS made up crap...

The tone of your comment seems angry, as if I'm tearing down a statue in a park where all history is apparently learned in the States...

Do you deny this version of history: North Korea Has Never Attacked the US, but the US Has Killed an Estimated 4-10 Million Koreans ?

a reply to: paraphi

I worry as to the level of revisionism and fallacy in the OP.

It is ironic you stated that since you followed it up with your own revisionism and fallacy:

The real threat to North Korea is their development of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them; this being done while the population starves and China and Russia profit.

Also:

The Korean War started when the North attempted to invades the South. The South was supported by the UN with USA initially in situ. The North was supported by the Chinese and Russians. Note the war was initiated by North Korea (communist) supported by China and Russia.

My OP was not about who started the war. The crux of the OP is: America is the aggressor and threat in present times — not Korea.

originally posted by: Involutionist
Do you deny this version of history: North Korea Has Never Attacked the US, but the US Has Killed an Estimated 4-10 Million Koreans ?

It is a true comment, but cuts both ways. While North Korea has not attacked the US, the North Koreans did initiate an invasion of the South that was under the protection of the US. Conversely, the US did not attack the North as they (the US) were part of an international force defending the South.

2. Your figure of "estimated killed" has been plucked out from the air.
- The direct toll from the Korean War (started by the North) was c. 2.5 million civilians killed and wounded, with the killed being around a million. That was both sides.
- Combatants on both sides amounted to c. 400K to 800K killed. Getting actual statistics is difficult as the North and Chinese have never revealed the body count, however as the Chinese deployed over a million troops and their tactics were quite blunt, we can speculate that lots of Chinese died.
- Since the Armistice the North Korean regime has murdered and starved c. 3.5 million of its own population, but that's highly speculative because in North Korea is not exactly an open society!

originally posted by: Involutionist
It is ironic you stated that since you followed it up with your own revisionism and fallacy:

You need to re-read what you wrote in the OP. It is crass revisionism.

The facts are plain. If North Korea was not threatening everyone AND was building nukes AND was run by a regime that's mad as a box of frogs, no one would give a toss. North Korea would be classed as just be another poorly run dictatorship. As it is they are making themselves the centre of attention.

a reply to: paraphi

It is a true comment, but cuts both ways. While North Korea has not attacked the US, the North Koreans did initiate an invasion of the South that was under the protection of the US.

In 1945 the world declared Korea a free country again.

In 1946, the US Government drew a line and split Korea in twain, taking most of the food production land for the South.

This pee'd off the remainder of Korea (what is now the North) and they attacked to try and throw out the decadent invaders. ( That would be the US) They failed.

The US are still in illegal occupation of the South. If they left, the North and South could unite under the care of China. This does not suit the West's Military Industrial Complex.

Truth is truth.

Click me!

P

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Why? Because I am an American and North Korea presently has declared that they intend to strike this country with a nuclear weapon.

When did North Korea declare they intend to strike the US...?

I don't give a damn what America has or has not done to or with them, self preservation dictates that I'd rather see them taken out than see the chance of my own experiencing death and destruction from NorK WMDs.

I'm pretty sure N.Korea feels the same way since it is America that has *fifteen military bases* in South Korea with weapons of mass destruction aimed directly at North Korea. Also, America has TWO bases right on the North Korean border plus another base close by in the Korean peninsula.

North Korea has no warships circling the coast of America; no bases stationed on its borders; and is not pressuring the global community, specifically its neighbouring nations, to impose unfair economic sanctions.

Also: based on reports dating back to May.11/2017 America had US B-1B Bombers from Guam carry out exercises to test its compacity in South Korea by releasing inert weapons at the Pilsung Range followed up by more provocation when US bombers were reported to overfly North Korea, which was in violation of international law.

...it's one country with nuclear weapons directly threatening a country with the full capacity and ability to grease spot the entirety of the other if we so choose.

And this is exactly why North Korea will never actually follow through. From the link in the OP:

The Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea is ramping up its nuclear deterrence, and this is causing consternation and wild proclamations from western officials and corporate media. What is particularly galling for the United States side is that North Korea appears to have achieved the capability of hitting the US mainland with ICBMs.

However, is the US not capable of hitting North Korea from wherever? So why does a rival created by the US cause panicked rhetoric upon achievement of an ICBM capacity?

Jack Rice, a former CIA agent, referred to North Korea as a “threat.” Why? Who is threatening who? North Korea has pledged no-first-use of nukes. The US has not. So who is the actual threat?

If North Korea has achieved and maintains an effective nuclear deterrence, then a US attack is only imaginable in a nightmare Bizarro World. An attack on a nuclear-armed North Korea would be mad. The US would not be unscathed in such an attack. Major population centers such as Seoul, Busan, and Tokyo (all where US troops are stationed) and perhaps the US mainland would be hit. Of course, North Korea would be obliterated. Even if continental US were not hit by nukes, the radiation from nuclear fallout and a potential nuclear winter will affect the entire planet

Consequently, all the talk in the media of a war is irrational conjecture or bluffing

Your lack of humanity and empathy demonstrated in your following words is appalling:

Simply put, maybe it's time for the USA to remind the North Koreans of what it feels like to be an ant under a boot...

So, just inflict pain and suffering on 25 million people is an act you condone based on media reports...? Hasn't America done enough of that across the globe since the end of WWII because of its imperialist agendas ...?

When the only source of information arises from being spoon fed by corporate news media—ignorance becomes built into the syntax of acceptable thought. False narratives and narrow (immoral in your case) philosophies are formed as the result.

Simply put, maybe it's time for the USA to demonstrate to the world a sense of morality for once...

One of those North Koreans you propose America squashes like ant under its boot:

a reply to: carewemust

Actually, President Trump also said that the U.S. "is not innocent". But, like most other Americans, Trump is more concerned about the threat that North Korea is posing TODAY, more so than what we (the USA) may have done to North Korea in the past. He does not want current citizens of the United States to pay for damages that deceased USA leaders inflicted upon North Korea, decades ago.

I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you based on your POV. However, when one weighs the fact that it is the US that has been the aggressor these past 70 years towards N.Korea; that sentiment about Trump being concerned about N.Korea in the present is just rhetoric by the establishment, imo.

This whole N.Korea is a threat propaganda is all about $$$ and maintaining hegemony — and nothing more.

I addressed this point the other day in a thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: pheonix358

In 1945 the world declared Korea a free country again.

In 1946, the US Government drew a line and split Korea in twain, taking most of the food production land for the South.

This pee'd off the remainder of Korea (what is now the North) and they attacked to try and throw out the decadent invaders. ( That would be the US) They failed.

The US are still in illegal occupation of the South. If they left, the North and South could unite under the care of China. This does not suit the West's Military Industrial Complex.

Truth is truth.

Your fair understanding of history is refreshing.

Btw, I clicked your link and subbed it. Will read it thru tomorrow when I wake up.(half asleep atm)

a reply to: paraphi

2. Your figure of "estimated killed" has been plucked out from the air. - The direct toll from the Korean War (started by the North) was c. 2.5 million civilians killed and wounded, with the killed being around a million. That was both sides. -
Combatants on both sides amounted to c. 400K to 800K killed. Getting actual statistics is difficult as the North and Chinese have never revealed the body count, however as the Chinese deployed over a million troops and their tactics were quite blunt, we can speculate that lots of Chinese died.

Your numbers sound more realistic. I acquiesce.

originally posted by: pheonix358
In 1945 the world declared Korea a free country again.

In 1946, the US Government drew a line and split Korea in twain, taking most of the food production land for the South

In 1945 the Soviets, the UK and the UK agreed that Korea would have a five year transition to independence after.

After Japan's defeat by the allies in WW2 the UN implemented what they called a "trustee administration" split along the 38th parallel, as per the previous agreements in 19545. The Russians in the North and the US in the South. Clearly, while the initial intent may have been to reunify Korea, the worsening Cold War got in the way and both parts formed their own governments. This followed the UN run elections which the North opted out of (because communists don't vote, do they). As we saw in Eastern Europe, the Russians just did not give back land they had "liberated"!

Anyhoo. The North attempted a forcible unification of Korea with the support of the Chinese and Russians, and thus the Korean War was initiated.

a reply to: Involutionist

Ya i saw that comment about the ant under the boot and i could just shake my head..

a reply to: Involutionist

Your point from all of that?

a reply to: Involutionist

You waste a lot of time and went through some effort to pin the blame on America defending its friends and allies while totally ignoring the spread of communism after WWII when it was a real threat to world peace again.

originally posted by: Raxoxane
a reply to: Involutionist

Ya i saw that comment about the ant under the boot and i could just shake my head..

Grow up. Its a nasty world out there and it isn't unreasonable at all to think in such terms.

Reality, stop running from it, you aren't safe from it and never will be.

The side effect of first world mentalities, to think you are safe under order, law and military prowess.

a reply to: mr-lizard

I missed the part where we started randomly launching our missiles around just to threaten them.

They started chucking theirs all over willy-nilly before anyone did anything about it. Until then, I don't anyone really cared a whole lot about what kind of squat pissing they were doing in their little holes over there.

It's horrific and awful, but no one wants to dig that tick out. It's for the North Korean people to do if they're so inclined.

But the day he started chucking missiles into the bay that could be tipped with nukes, all of that changed.

It's all fun and games until some other countries citizens could suffer because he's feeling his oats.

a reply to: ketsuko

Seriously kets, you're joking aren't you?

Do you know how many "Atomic" bomb tests the USA has conducted, everywhere from the USA Mainland, to several Pacific Islands and atolls, and Directly in our atmosphere causing the Zone hole and all (As documented by the US Atomic commission)........

I'll tell you......1054 "Official" Nuclear BOMB Tests since WW2, including 216 atmospheric tests, and untold Underwater, and space tests.

1054!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Now, you are talking about big bad NK with its 3 tests, and its big bad missile, of which the USA has about 30,000+

I have noticed over the years that I have read ATS, that there seems to be an Increasing Bravado amongst our American(USA) members, with regards to, "Lets blow up the World, you Know they deserve it, WE can do it...am I right, yeah" etc etc

Im astounded that ordinary US citizens can just easily exclaim that they want to, bomb the hell out of the Russians, or bomb the hell out of the Chinese or as current, bomb the hell out of the NKs.

What the HELL is Wrong with you people!!!

NoOne in their RIGHT mind wants a War, let alone a Nuclear Holocaust, and No one in this day and age of information and instant, infinite knowledge, should even be thinking such ancient thoughts.

What has happened to you people?, certainly there seems to have been a quantum shift in attitude with the USA psyche on this forum.....at least in the past 5 years or so.

Agreed, Lil Kim is "crazy" to our beliefs, of course, he has been indoctrinated that way........as have the NK people.

Perhaps a closer look at history.....not the fallacy written by the "Winners", should be looked at closely.

Firstly, both Korea and China were under a devastating, cruel, occupying regime, that was the Japanese Imperial Forces, They had been in effect, invaded by the Japanese and made into slaves for Japan.
There is documentation, that shows that up to 10 million (some say 30 million) Chinese were killed during the occupation of the 30s/40s (many thru starvation, exhaustion etc). Certainly the attrition rate in Korea was similar.
I love Japanese culture, but in that period (as the Nazis) they were cruel, unrelenting, nightmarish force of destruction.

From what I read, after the Defeat of Japan, Korea WAS annexed, BUT the USA/Americans then gave Power to ex Japanese Imperial Force commanders, to then subdue the Korean Peoples, with many Japanese sympathisers in the South, compared to the North, is was the South that had intention to enforce a Japanese/USA type of administration on the farmers and peoples of all Korea.......But the North Koreans wanted a United Korea under THEIR own management, NOT their former invaders/occupiers (Japan) and there Now new bestest buddies the USA....

As Far as the Chinese, they had just endured a civil/revolutionary war against, First the Japanese and the Imperial West, then The National Socialist of Chiang Kai-Shek, vs the Stalinist Communists of Mao Tse Tung.

As we know, Chairman Mao won the Revolutionary War, and drove the Nationalist out to Taiwan, and China changed its political structure once again......this was in 1950.

So remember, at this time, Just after the WW2, the Japanese occupation, the Chinese Revolution, the Involvement of the USA (Western Imperial) in Korean affairs........Well, things developed, as they did.

So, Put yourselves in the shoes of the North Korean Peoples.....................

So, Who is the aggressor......in Your North Korea Eyes?

Not so simple is it?