Incredulity complex and Evolution

a reply to: Raggedyman

Ha ha, you really don't get it at all!

If English is your first language, I just feel bad for you.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

Is there an issue with your comprehension skills, you been drinking to much and posting again

Oh yah, that's very classy of you there bud. So now I'm drunk posting because I don't agree with you and call you out on your dishonest tactics.

Nice form pal.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Noinden

Even the bible talks about "No other Gods before me" implying other gods.

Yeah, there are/were lots of gods. Baal, Oden, Zeus, Aphrodite, ...

Surely you understand what the word 'context' means?

a reply to: chr0naut

So, if something is one chance in a billion, and you do it nearly infinite numbers of times, your probability comes closer to being exactly one chance in a billion, averaged over all the results. The actual probability does not change or become more probable.

Actually the probability does change. If at the beginning of an experiment, the probability of 'X' occurring is one in a billion over the lifetime of the experiment, and then 'X' does in fact occur, then the probability changes to 1. No matter how small the probability at the beginning, the longer the experiment goes on, the more probable that the event will indeed occur.

In the play "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead", Rosencrantz bets heads on a coin flip and wins 92 times in a row. Each individual coin flip is 50-50 probability but there is NOTHING preventing 92 heads in a row. The odds against 92 heads in a row are astronomical, yet still the possibility exists. It has nothing to do with being so unlikely that there must be a supernatural cause, it just is (R and G do debate the idea that they must have fallen into some unnatural or supernatural world for 92 heads to come up).

There are 2,598,960 distinct 5 card poker hands if you pay attention to suits. To get any one of those hands, I don't have to sit through 2.6 million deals - I get one of those 2.6 million hands with the first deal and the second deal and the third deal, etc. I have, in my lifetime, been dealt a Royal Flush - extremely low odds, but it happens.

I can't tell you how many deals it will take to get a specific pre-specified hand, but once I have been dealt a hand I can tell you exactly what the odds are that that hand will occur during the game: 100%.

No matter how improbable the existence of life may be (and they are not anywhere as low as some would have you believe), the fact is that life did not exist at some time in the past and that it does exist now: the odds of that occurring are 100%.

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: MarsIsRed

I agree, the idea that evolution is contrary to Creation and the Bible is plain stupid.

Yet those that oppose Christian ethics, morality and belief continually argue against a case that was moot a century ago.

Evolution describes a process of biological change. It does not explain how that biology came to be in the first place.

Creationism describes a process of the initiation of biology. It does not describe any process of biological change.

Not are they mutually exclusive: God could have created completely formed species and they could have evolved from there or God could have directed abiogenic forces and there could have been biological change from there. All these ideas are compliant with the Bible and with science.

There is another possibility - that the universe is a simulation. This has been seriously discussed in several articles. I think this possibility needs to be included in any discussion of who, what, where and when the universe and its contents appeared.

Absolutely!

But the question then becomes 'what is it a simulation of' and what is the simulation running on (it's substrate)?

Turtles all the way down?

originally posted by: TheLead
a reply to: chr0naut

Sorry I don't quite understand where you are coming from. I was talking about our universe being infinite not an infinite amount of universes. I also stated "seemingly" infinite due to our limited ability to actually measure it. I don't understand your stance you seem to be suggesting that god didn't create the universe(s), but that gods existence has to be, because the existence of the universe(s) and it's need for essentially a brain to be interconnected and function appropriately? What created the universe that created god?

I suggested that I see the potential for god to not only exist, but set it into motion. I didn't suggest it was action of random force, I believe our universe is a living organism.

I often wonder if a negative pressure ie a vacuum effect lead to the singularity, is our universe in some type of container?. Was the energy compressed together from an outside force or drawn together. I also question if an all knowing being created us, why the need to evolve? Why wouldn't the world/universe already be in perfect cohesion? In the amount of places we've atleast study by means of telescope, why are we the only ones of our kind? Shouldn't the cosmos be teaming with life in our form/his image.

The universe we observe is not infinite. There seems to be boundary limitations everywhere, no matter of scale and value (such as quantisation, planck values and the event horizon of the universe).

I was not suggesting that gods are created by universes. That would be backwards. The universe/s are the creations.

I was just trying to point out that a heirarchy in probability would likely resolve in the collapse of those probabilities with insufficient power to assert themselves but with sufficient power to vie against a supreme God.

The Casimir experiment showed that virtual particles could exert a force within a confined space that is less than the force generated by an unconstrained space. It is important to realise that the experiment proves that matter excludes the creation of vparticles. That is why there is a differential in vparticle pressure.

So, if matter excludes the spontaneous creation of vparticles, then how could a singularity (where matter and all particles are superimposed upon each other in the same confined physical space) arise from quantum fluctuation?

Also, Hawking radiation near the swartzchild radius of a black hole indicates that vparticles may be stripped apart and prevented from annihalating under extreme gravitational tidal forces. Yet for a protouniverse that does not yet contain any matter or force carrying particles, how can there be any forces preventing the annihalation of vparticles from quantum fluctuation?

Those two concepts, mathematically and observationally attested to, when combined together explain why quantum fluctuation is not able to produce a Big Bang singularity.

Similarly, trying to reduce a creative God concept to a simple and mindless physical force, or rule, simply fails to encompass the incredible variety of observed results. It is a rule of thermodynamics that chaotic closed systems (such as a universe) stabilize towards the lowest sum energy state. This means that every situation should be tending to a single lowest energy state. Yet despite that, we have significant and largely inexplicable variety, everywhere.

originally posted by: rnaa
a reply to: chr0naut

So, if something is one chance in a billion, and you do it nearly infinite numbers of times, your probability comes closer to being exactly one chance in a billion, averaged over all the results. The actual probability does not change or become more probable.

Actually the probability does change. If at the beginning of an experiment, the probability of 'X' occurring is one in a billion over the lifetime of the experiment, and then 'X' does in fact occur, then the probability changes to 1. No matter how small the probability at the beginning, the longer the experiment goes on, the more probable that the event will indeed occur.

In the play "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead", Rosencrantz bets heads on a coin flip and wins 92 times in a row. Each individual coin flip is 50-50 probability but there is NOTHING preventing 92 heads in a row. The odds against 92 heads in a row are astronomical, yet still the possibility exists. It has nothing to do with being so unlikely that there must be a supernatural cause, it just is (R and G do debate the idea that they must have fallen into some unnatural or supernatural world for 92 heads to come up).

There are 2,598,960 distinct 5 card poker hands if you pay attention to suits. To get any one of those hands, I don't have to sit through 2.6 million deals - I get one of those 2.6 million hands with the first deal and the second deal and the third deal, etc. I have, in my lifetime, been dealt a Royal Flush - extremely low odds, but it happens.

I can't tell you how many deals it will take to get a specific pre-specified hand, but once I have been dealt a hand I can tell you exactly what the odds are that that hand will occur during the game: 100%.

No matter how improbable the existence of life may be (and they are not anywhere as low as some would have you believe), the fact is that life did not exist at some time in the past and that it does exist now: the odds of that occurring are 100%.

The actual probability value does not change.

The more times you execute the 'toss of the coin' (or whatever is your randomising procedure), the closer the ratio of the results will come to represent the probability value (not a reduced probability, because it doesn't change).

If a coin toss has a 50/50 chance of showing heads, then each and every toss has a 50% chance of being heads, no matter how many times you toss the coin.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: MarsIsRed

I agree, the idea that evolution is contrary to Creation and the Bible is plain stupid.

Yet those that oppose Christian ethics, morality and belief continually argue against a case that was moot a century ago.

Evolution describes a process of biological change. It does not explain how that biology came to be in the first place.

Creationism describes a process of the initiation of biology. It does not describe any process of biological change.

Not are they mutually exclusive: God could have created completely formed species and they could have evolved from there or God could have directed abiogenic forces and there could have been biological change from there. All these ideas are compliant with the Bible and with science.

There is another possibility - that the universe is a simulation. This has been seriously discussed in several articles. I think this possibility needs to be included in any discussion of who, what, where and when the universe and its contents appeared.

Absolutely!

But the question then becomes 'what is it a simulation of' and what is the simulation running on (it's substrate)?

Turtles all the way down?

And the answer is: No one knows. All three options are speculative. All three are worthy of investigation as long as hard evidence is discovered. So it's back to square one....

a reply to: Raggedyman

Once again neighbour. These have been provided previously and you ignored them. They have been provided by multiple sources too, or will you once again assert we are all socks of someone?

SO no I'm not going to provide something again. The ball is in your court.

a reply to: Noinden

It would honestly be a real simple matter for ole raggedy to demonstrate that he even understand the science he so easily dismisses with a mere wave of the hand by going over the material presented to him, point by point and point out where the errors are in the science.

You and I both know that's never going to happen though because he doesn't actually understand the most basic aspects of any of it. It's pretty easy to see when he constantly throws in the strawman argument with the sole purpose of derailing people from the real subject matter where he attempts to refute MES in every thread by claiming that the BB isn't true as if that has anything to do with evolution. And the fact that he continuously makes idiotic claims about the BB such as the "everything from nothing" statement in his first reply in this thread when the BB never once makes such a claim.

It's the craziest instance of cognitive dissonance coupled with willful ignorance I've ever seen. And that's saying a lot considering how much time I spend on ATS! But sadly, he not only doesn't understand any of the science, he has zero interest in gaining an understanding of it in any way. I'm more than happy to admit that I'm wrong though if he were ever to refute the science by pointing out the errors instead of using his standard replies while refusing to look at any of the information presented.

a reply to: peter vlar

IF he did that he'd have to admit he's wrong. When was that last a thing with Raggy?

You are correct however, he has no understanding. OR (I lean to this) he's doing it for evangelical reasons. Much like Kirk Cameron and CrocoDuck

So are you my sock this week or me yours?

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: peter vlar

IF he did that he'd have to admit he's wrong. When was that last a thing with Raggy?

That's never been his bag to my recollection

You are correct however, he has no understanding. OR (I lean to this) he's doing it for evangelical reasons. Much like Kirk Cameron and CrocoDuck

Either that or he's a troll trying to make other biblical creationists look stupid. I'm on the fence as to which it may be.

So are you my sock this week or me yours?

At this point we may as well just flip a coin for it. Heads or tails?

a reply to: peter vlar

Not in my memory either. It usually ends with a moderator sin binning him for being naughty.

IF he is that Troll, I applaud him! He's doing a bang up job! I've shown him to some friends who refuse to engage here, and they laugh and face palm all the time

Now I need to see that coin before we flip it please

a reply to: Noinden

Now I need to see that coin before we flip it please

Here ya go folks... use one of mine:

Android: Heads or Tails

iOS: Coin Flip

Windows 10 Mobile: Coin Toss OMG!

a reply to: chr0naut

Better late than never, I guess.

If a coin toss has a 50/50 chance of showing heads, then each and every toss has a 50% chance of being heads, no matter how many times you toss the coin.

You are absolutely correct. However the odds against getting 92 heads in a row are astronomical; the probability is almost zero.

Almost zero, but not zero. If it happens, it happens, right? If you flip a coin 92 times, or a billion times, or a googleplex times, you have some number of 92 flip sequences. Each one of those sequences has a some probability value. In fact the odds can easily calculated: its is 2 to the 92 power: 4,951,760,157,141,521,099,596,496,896 to 1. The probability of any particular sequence appearing at any particular time is 1/4,951,760,157,141,521,099,596,496,896.

Every single 92 flip sequence has exactly the same probability as every other 92 flip sequence: 1 in 4,951,760,157,141,521,099,596,496,896. Lets call that 'gumph' just so I don't have to keep copy pasting that number.

If you conduct a test with 4,951,760,157,141,521,099,596,496,896 (+91 to ensure the right number of complete sequences) flips the starting probability that you will see each possible sequence is close to 1 but of course not quite 1. As you get close to the end, that overall probability gets smaller, yet the probability of any particular sequence remains the same, as does the probability of any particular flip. This is an important point, remember it for later.

You'll never get every possible sequence, but that is not because the probability for some sequences is higher or lower than other sequences, it is precisely because the odds on any individual flip is 50/50.

Now if you run that number of tests, and don't get one example of every possible sequence, it means that some sequences must be occurring more than once, right?. So is the probability of those particular sequences higher than other sequence? No. The coin toss itself is not random, your thumb gets tired, you resort to a mechanical coin flipper that tosses exactly the same every time, then wears out, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is perfect, but that too is random.

However, once any particular sequence appears, its probability of appearing in the results of your experiment becomes 100%. The odds of it occuring a second time remains 1 in 4,951,760,157,141,521,099,596,496,896

The probability of life occurring on Earth is absolutely 100%. Arguments about how likely or unlikely it is are irrelevant. Life is an existential fact.

However, lets discuss that important point mentioned above. However unlikely the odds against some specific result, the overall probability of that result occurring depends on the number of trials left to do in the experiment. In the case of our 'gumph' experiment, at the beginning of the experiment, we knew we were going to do a gumph(+91) number of flips so the likelihood of all sequences approached 1, but diminished as we got closer to the end. But what if we did gumph times gumph trials? gumph to the power of gumph trials? Then the likelihood of some sequence being left out approaches zero and in fact is almost impossible to imagine.

And so with the 'life on Earth'. Every drop of water is running 'gumph' trials, there are 'gumph' drops of water in one rainstorm, in one hotspring pool. The likely hood of life not appearing easily approaches close enough to zero to become a certainty given some environmental boundary conditions.

If God created the Universe 10,000 years ago and made it look like it is 14.5 billion years old, he could have done that trick last Thursday, or indeed 5 minutes from now and nobody would be the wiser. Whatever, it still looks like it is 14.5 billion years old, that is the universe we are presented with, that is the universe we are living in, and that is the universe I, for one, am enthralled in learning about.