Retrocausality and the Self Fulfilling Prophecy

Civil war. Revolution. Radical change to business as usual. Having watched and been an active part of the discussions here during the last American elections, hints of this manifest itself in various forms from all political candidates. Could this be a uniform call to for us to carry out the pre-decided course regardless of whom lives in the White House?

Retrocausality from the wiki is described as so:

Retrocausality is primarily a thought experiment in philosophy of science based on elements of physics, addressing whether the future can affect the present and whether the present can affect the past.[1] Philosophical considerations of time travel often address the same issues as retrocausality, as do treatments of the subject in fiction, although the two terms are not universally synonymous.

For the purpose of discussion, I'm going to dismiss the time travel aspects but would like to address the context of living in the context of a future event in the present.

Tv shows such as The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and to a similar extent Preppers, prove that a dystopian future is well within the minds of Americans as well as romanticized over. Books, movies and music also mirror this evidence. It's prevalent.

Also, there is the situation of the self-fulfilling prophecy that works its way into the theory. Whether its a conscious or unconscious effort to form this reality should not go unmentioned.

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

Evidence of this can be seen in the use of familiar literature such as George Orwell.

It's easy to explain the phenomena away as foreshadowing or making an educated guess based on the information provided. However, we have years of history that predicts an end to mankind and some sort of wasteland aftermath that we as humans will need to struggle through. Main question here is; is this by design or destiny?

a reply to: JinMI

I think neither.

We are not so removed from our primitive ancestors.

We fear the unknown, so when we can put a name to the unknown, when we can label and "identify" it, (basically quantifying it) then the unknown becomes less scary.

We love our horror stories. I think the same applies.

When we face fears, when we label fears, identify fears, when we put a name to our fears, they become less fearful.

a reply to: JinMI
Good questions Jin. But side stepping slightly from the question of is it part of a plan, there is also the simple explanation of profit.

I would place the initial popularity of the dystopian vision on the move Mad Max. At truly disturbing vision, It offered us a first glimpse of soon to be super star Mel Gibson. The success of that movie brought on another and another, all looking for the financial success of the series.
Likewise the success of the low budget Night of the Living Dead spawned the real beginning of that genre.

As the American movie public becomes more and more jaded and bored with the adreniline rush provided by such films, the necessity to exploit the genre increases to maintain the viewer base.

None of which discounts the controlled manipulation of our society by the powers behind these ''entetainments'

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Sure. As far as the driving force for the economical advantages of making entertainment.

However there is the macro aspect to look at. Do we view these things to be entertained, or perhaps some part wished it to be the future. Also, it could be argued that we are being swayed to believe that this is the only possible outcome. That is where retrocausality comes in. We've already reconciled the fact that that is the future so somewhere in our collective minds act in ways that bring that future to pass. Similar to the self fulfilling prophecy.

I would wonder if "dystopian" is always an imaginary thing ... to wit, if you're living in the "dystopian future" to you, it's just the future. We are incredibly adaptable creatures. For a mundane example, consider the way you felt in your early adulthood about certain things ... relationships, jobs, religion, politics ... and how you feel about them now. (Assuming that there's a space of at least a few years in there) I would bet that all of us would find considerable differences between what we "feared" in the past and what we're "living" now.

Those of us who survive a biological, chemical, nuclear attack, or an asteroid, supervolcano, etc. whatever the vector, will be focused almost entirely on "the new normal." The world we used to know will become more and more dreamlike in time.

Humans, it seems to me, have lived through large-scale catastrophes before. Perhaps that has conditioned our instincts/genetic memory/etc. to anticipate or fear another one. But I will say this ... almost every human culture I'm aware of has had some version of the "end times" ... and none of them have come true in at least 5000 years.

Or so. Dates slide backward and forward a lot more easily than they used to.

I'm sure that TPTB use all of our innate weaknesses against us ... and the fear/memory of the Apocalypse is probably one of the strongest ... along with the innate awareness/fear of death.

And of course, our tendency to split into camps of "us and them."

Some thoughts, anyway.

a reply to: DBCowboy

There is room to discuss the intention of the viewer. Is it simple entertainment or is it a desire to live in the environment? Furthermore is that intentional by outside forces or are we hardwired to make that reality happen?

a reply to: JinMI

However, we have years of history that predicts an end to mankind and some sort of wasteland aftermath that we as humans will need to struggle through.

Your not exaggerating on that. 1000's of years, that we know of.

Main question here is; is this by design or destiny?

Maybe a little of both.

a reply to: JinMI

I really don't think we have that much control over our future.

We like to think we do. It feeds our sense of self worth, it enables our ego.

It's nice to believe that we are captains and creators of our own destiny, but we are simple passengers living our lives.

Apologies if I veered from the intent.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellent observation. Indeed every recorded history has its version of end times. It's worth noting as well that they the common belief is that the each thought they would live to see it, even today given all of our advances in technology and logic. Why is this so? What is it in humans that wishes, to use the term loosely, to see the end of their civilization or to prepare for it? Basic human survival?

I certainly would not put it past any driving agenda to use this long historic programming against the masses. It's a great control device.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Small variations in initial conditions have dramatic effects further down the time-stream.

I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, of course, but it seems to me that the most powerful influences on any of our lives are based on a range of occurrences and decisions that we had nothing to do with, and that nothing we do in our life can change.

Something like that? Although I think small adjustments might be within our conscious control ...

a reply to: JinMI

Tho unable to articulate this as well as you, the concept you described has been heavy on my mind of late. One poster mentioned movies implying the same which I don't watch. However, I do find myself falling into hopelessness for what may
may come. Am in the process of looking for more positive outcomes, whether true or not.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Life is too unpredictable for any of us to assume that we can alter or control the direction of our collective destinies.

Our individual destinies we have some control over, but humanities? Societies collective destinies?

I don't think so.


I will caveat that I haven't given it much thought until this thread, so I could be way off base.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I like to think we ultimately have control over our futures, perhaps in vain, but not to the extent on how it is shaped.
For instance, if I want to live in a certain place and do a certain thing for a living, I'm under my own control to get there. What happens from outside influence/interference may very well be beyond my control.

To that, is it so far fetched to believe that I chose to live and work in that area not of my own idea or will but to serve a overarching certain end?

Apologies if I veered from the intent.

You may very well understand it better than I do.

a reply to: liveandlearn

I don't think you're alone in those thoughts, even by a small margin.

You also shine some light on a complete opposite possible intention. Perhaps our minds are geared to think in this fashion to prevent that ultimate end. A human survival mechanism that forces the mind to think of the absolute worst possible living situation as motivation to keep it from happening. However, attitude plays hell on our thought processes. Combine with stress and logic can sit by the wayside while actions take over.

a reply to: JinMI

I'd have to breech my version of metaphysics and talk about instincts and greater levels of genetic influence.

To avoid going too far out there ... let me just say that I think that we may be missing a considerable amount of information about what we really are by limiting what we think of us "ourselves." And it's not just humans. Example: spiders know how to build complex webs, birds know how to build nests innately or instinctually.

I believe that there is an additional form or mode of awareness/consciousness that "shares the ride" with us in our bodies, but this isn't spiritual or demonic but is rather innate/instinctual/primal. I think this is what Jung (and to a lesser extent) Freud and others pointed to as the Unconscious ... which quickly turns into a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

At any rate, having failed not "going out there" I would say that there is a subordinate awareness or will that shares our beings and that the locus of that is at the cellular or mitochondrial level.

With minute changes made by our "ego-consciousness" ... that deeper self is, to me, the real "Decider." Some humans, who have slowed down enough to consciously monitor their internal workings, often speak of a "higher (more inclusive) self" ... that sounds like a function of genetic heritage/instinct to me.

Sorry to get bogged down there. That is my answer to your "what is it in humans that wishes to see the end of civilization" etc.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Gryphon66

Life is too unpredictable for any of us to assume that we can alter or control the direction of our collective destinies.

Our individual destinies we have some control over, but humanities? Societies collective destinies?

I don't think so.


I will caveat that I haven't given it much thought until this thread, so I could be way off base.

Nope. From what I can see, you're right on track. There are billions if not trillions of decisions being made and actions being taken all around us every moment, completely beyond the scope of our awareness or our ability to affect, that taken altogether form what we experience as "reality." Couple that with sheer random chance and a healthy helping of "all the things we don't know or even imagine yet" and it's amazing that we retain any sense of self-cohesion at all.

a reply to: Gryphon66

No, no! Definitely take it there. I too subscribe to the belief that there is a higher consciousness than what we access in our daily lives. Proof to that end are all over this forum matter of fact. Whether its prophetic dreaming or remote viewing or even something as mundane as unconditional love, those are proofs to a 'higher' thinking or access to something above average. However, that's not where I think the subject of the OP comes from. I would wager that it comes from somewhere much lower and basic, even primitive as you stated earlier.

IF the tool being used is oppression and IF there is an agenda, then by appealing to the most basic levels of human thought that we are all assured to share, malicious ends could be achieved.

a reply to: JinMI

The Apostle Paul said "That which I would not do, that I do.". I think many of us here have probably looked at the actions we take even here at ATS and wonder at our ... behavior. Yet, the next day or hour we're right back at it.

Or maybe that's just me ...

Great thread!

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Sure. As far as the driving force for the economical advantages of making entertainment.

However there is the macro aspect to look at. Do we view these things to be entertained, or perhaps some part wished it to be the future. Also, it could be argued that we are being swayed to believe that this is the only possible outcome. That is where retrocausality comes in. We've already reconciled the fact that that is the future so somewhere in our collective minds act in ways that bring that future to pass. Similar to the self fulfilling prophecy.

Right. Then let me add this. I was appalled when I first saw Mad Max. I was 32 and an avid sf reader. By that time I had read numerous novels with that dystopian vision. But those novels had not made it to the big screen.

What appalled me about Mad Max was that it seemed to glorify the lawlessness of post apocalyptic America. In the following years, the images from that movie came down off the screen and I saw a dramatic upturn in clothing trends.
Wild piercings and tattooing and outrageous behavior emulated the wild bunch from those movies. Big time wrestling also jumped on and added to that bandwagon.

Basically, until the late 70s the dominant message about the future had been uplifting. Sure there were a movies that were not but for the most part the future looked promising.

And tossing into that mix, was big time wrestling. I watched that too. The doomsday message was popping up there also.
Road Warrior images were prominent. Viral rebels fighting against the system(McMahon).And on and on.

So for me, the question is this. Was this turn to a popular vision of future dystopia just an accident due to profit making imagination or something more sinister. Could it be that this was the hidden power structure creating several generations of overly testosteroned rebels all preparing for the future in which only they would have power?

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Was this turn to a popular vision of future dystopia just an accident due to profit making imagination or something more sinister. Could it be that this was the hidden power structure creating several generations of overly testosteroned rebels all preparing for the future in which only they would have power?

That's an interesting perspective. In an environment devoid of laws and structure overpowering everyone else is the only method for survival. A very basic primitive world. A de-evolution if you will. In my opinion, a calculating group would not want that for themselves, but would surely create a situation where they would thrive and control. I guess I can't see which would benefit more.