Natalee Holloway Remains Possibly Found

originally posted by: Nyiah
The f'er is in prison in Peru for a reason. Is it too much to ask that the people defending him to think about that reason before defending him? Any sympathy for Joran goes right out the window regardless of "American standards", because he's already been convicted of killing someone else. Let that sink in & spare me the feigned morality attention whoring. Depraved bastard is as depraved bastard does, thus a depraved bastard should be so blessed to choke on something less pleasant than vomit even if he didn't kill Natalee -- he still killed someone else and his place of residence will not change any time soon. Sympathizing with a convicted cold-blooded murderer is about as knuckle-dragger as you can get, and it shines a hell of a light on your own "morals".

That's completely bogus.

You are essentially taking a safe position (all murderers are bad) and then feigning a strawman that anyone who questions the facts or attempts to apply due process is a "murder sympathizer", which you and anyone with a brain knows is utter bull.

What you just did is by definition "virtue signaling" - you are taking a safe position, utilizing strawmen arguments and attacking those who disagree as morally questionable or reprehensible.

The reason what you are doing is bogus is because Due Process considerations are paramount to emotional reactions, and so you basically attempt to paint someone as immoral for questioning your "feelings" about the nuances of the topic.

The guy who brought up the point wasn't trying to do anything except remind people (who appear to be very fickle, emotionally driven, lack neutrality, etc) that we need to step outside of the box of our emotions for a few minutes and remember that we are suppose to believe in a legal process that protects the accused.

AT NO POINT DID DRUNKENMIMEMASTER ATTEMPT TO GARNER SYMPATHY FOR JORAN!!

I have to put that in all caps lock so hopefully you'll see it.
He was trying to espouse a higher ideal about what civilized people think and how they act when it comes to crimes like murder or rape or whatever heinous accusation might be flying around.

Everyone who got pissed at him was knee-jerk reacting without thinking clearly because they are "FEELING" and "REACTING". Those feelings are likely anger, disgust, frustration, etc.

That was because they did not properly read the context or apply critical thinking skills to his posts. They "read things into it" that he didn't say because everyone on ATS needs an ideological enemy to fight so they can pat themselves on the back and say "Wow I'm so morally just and virtuous" - and when those enemies don't materialize they will just create them outta thin air and start attacking otherwise well meaning innocent people like DrunkenMimeMaster.

What I just said would be ironic except that this entire debacle in this thread is a result of MISUNDERSTANDING and poor analysis skills.

If anyone had any real integrity they'd apologize to him for misunderstanding him and getting mad at him for no reason. It's ok if you do it privately and U2U him. But I really think that's the right thing to do.

And I'm sorry to everyone for even having to be involved in the stupid dispute. I never enjoy arguing, and in fact I avoid it as much as possible.

originally posted by: Ameilia

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster

originally posted by: Nyiah
The f'er is in prison in Peru for a reason. Is it too much to ask that the people defending him to think about that reason before defending him? Any sympathy for Joran goes right out the window regardless of "American standards", because he's already been convicted of killing someone else. Let that sink in & spare me the feigned morality attention whoring. Depraved bastard is as depraved bastard does, thus a depraved bastard should be so blessed to choke on something less pleasant than vomit even if he didn't kill Natalee -- he still killed someone else and his place of residence will not change any time soon. Sympathizing with a convicted cold-blooded murderer is about as knuckle-dragger as you can get, and it shines a hell of a light on your own "morals".

Never said i was sympathizing with him, thank you. Merely that, even accused folks have rights. I will always stand for rights for all - even if I personally despise the person in question. Yes, he has been found guilty of other crimes. But if we remove the presumption of innocence for him, it begins a road that ends with 'oh well, X was accused of a crime, must be guilty." I just like a fair playing field, is all.

Dude with respect, this thread is about Natalee, not you and your beliefs. You are really distracting the topic.

With all due respect, his statements about Joran and legal theory are totally on topic in the thread.

Your OP is essentially hearsay:
"Joran told John who told Gabriel that Natalee is buried here".

Although this information is likely true and that body really is hers, that isn't completely clear yet. I think it's highly likely it is her considering all the information available though.

But you have to understand when you mention this particular topic that tons of people will get very angry thinking about how unfair it was that this guy almost certainly raped and killed her. Notice I said "almost certainly" because it's not 100% certain exactly what happened due to conflicting information and we aren't totally sure just how many people were involved.

My position is that we should be more careful not to direct that anger and frustration at someone like Drunken who is merely trying to slow people down from making absolutist conclusions about something we actually don't know for 100% sure.

Well sir, if he was in the states I would. But he's not, so my hyperbole about the POS being shanked stands...When they finish with him......Casey Anthony could use a visit.a reply to: muzzleflash

a reply to: Ameilia

If it's her, then 'Gabriel' is a horrible human being for waiting so long to speak up. Van Der Sloot killed another young woman, since then. She would probably be alive today if 'Gabriel' had reported this more than a decade ago when he says Van Der Sloot told him the story.

Hope Natalee's parents finally get their closure though.

OP, if you are keeping up with this, will you let us know when the DNA results are in? I hope it's her, so her parents can take her home to Birmingham, and bury her. Her mother has wanted that for a long time.

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: Ameilia

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster

originally posted by: Nyiah
The f'er is in prison in Peru for a reason. Is it too much to ask that the people defending him to think about that reason before defending him? Any sympathy for Joran goes right out the window regardless of "American standards", because he's already been convicted of killing someone else. Let that sink in & spare me the feigned morality attention whoring. Depraved bastard is as depraved bastard does, thus a depraved bastard should be so blessed to choke on something less pleasant than vomit even if he didn't kill Natalee -- he still killed someone else and his place of residence will not change any time soon. Sympathizing with a convicted cold-blooded murderer is about as knuckle-dragger as you can get, and it shines a hell of a light on your own "morals".

Never said i was sympathizing with him, thank you. Merely that, even accused folks have rights. I will always stand for rights for all - even if I personally despise the person in question. Yes, he has been found guilty of other crimes. But if we remove the presumption of innocence for him, it begins a road that ends with 'oh well, X was accused of a crime, must be guilty." I just like a fair playing field, is all.

Dude with respect, this thread is about Natalee, not you and your beliefs. You are really distracting the topic.

With all due respect, his statements about Joran and legal theory are totally on topic in the thread.

Your OP is essentially hearsay:
"Joran told John who told Gabriel that Natalee is buried here".

Although this information is likely true and that body really is hers, that isn't completely clear yet. I think it's highly likely it is her considering all the information available though.

But you have to understand when you mention this particular topic that tons of people will get very angry thinking about how unfair it was that this guy almost certainly raped and killed her. Notice I said "almost certainly" because it's not 100% certain exactly what happened due to conflicting information and we aren't totally sure just how many people were involved.

My position is that we should be more careful not to direct that anger and frustration at someone like Drunken who is merely trying to slow people down from making absolutist conclusions about something we actually don't know for 100% sure.

Respectfully (because how many times can that be said here) I disagree. The poster made a snarky, incorrect comment on page 1 regarding Natalee's disappearance occurring in the USA and made his point based on US law. Since then the thread has degenerated into that poster squabbling with others over beliefs and law.

This is really, really about Natalee, the family of Natalee, and the body recovered. If not Natalee's body, then about that person and their family.

originally posted by: angeldoll
OP, if you are keeping up with this, will you let us know when the DNA results are in? I hope it's her, so her parents can take her home to Birmingham, and bury her. Her mother has wanted that for a long time.

I absolutely follow this case from when I first heard about it shortly after her disappearance. If not me, someone will surely post a topic as soon as the results are in.

a reply to: Ameilia

From watching the first episode of the mini series on Natalee, I learned that an entire body was not recovered. Rather, a body was buried for a time, dug up, cremated, cremains disposed to the sea, but evidence remained in the original burial site. This is the current belief.

Whatever evidence was removed from the burial site has tested as human, female, eastern European. Fox Source. It is also being said that Natalee's family does have the eastern European heritage.

This means, despite what Aruba officials previously said, there WAS A BODY in that site.

a reply to: Ameilia

And here is a Huffington Post source, from six days ago, quoting officials in Aruba denying anything was discovered. Pieces of scum.

HuffPo is still the King of Fake

originally posted by: DrunkenMimeMaster
Is my belief that until he is convicted of Holloway's murder, he is, technically innocent of that crime. Why are you deflecting from this discussion?

Guilty or innocent can be a rather slippery road. OJ can be proven innocent and aliens could be proven factual in a court of law with neither matching reality, so I do not really understand your technically point here other than to say he hasn't been convicted in a court of law yet..and I say OK no [email protected]

In neither case of a guilty or not guilty verdict proves whether the person is truly innocent or actually did the crime. To deliver a verdict of not guilty does not mean that the defendant is innocent. It means only that the prosecution did not convince the judge or jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

In this case he is technically a suspect to the crime...

a reply to: Ameilia

It wasn't her.

originally posted by: Ameilia
It wasn't her.

Is that the findings of the DNA test?

ETA: That is the official word: Remains found in Aruba do not belong to Natalee Holloway 

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

well...crap...that is a let down...I feel for her parents and family...no end in sight

a reply to: research100


Yeah, I was hoping they would get some closure.