Fermi Paradox - Communications Problem

originally posted by: UnderKingsPeak
If even the most conservative estimates
about intelligent life in the universe are close
we are most certainly not alone.

I think that's why Fermi's Paradox seems to be quite the conundrum.

One form of the question asked by the Fermi Paradox is:
"If we aren't alone, then where is everyone else?"

In that form of the question, it can be pre-supposed that other intelligent aliens do in fact exist, but there could be reasons why we have not had any contact with them. These reasons can vary, as 'eriktheawul' has discussed in his series of Fermi Paradox threads.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Excellent thread.

My only addition would be "If a lion could talk we could not understand it".

Even if we dismiss the idea that they take 10 years to say a simple phrase, or they use odors to communicate there's the point of relating to them.

I can't understand half of what a teenager says and they have the same language (apparently).

a reply to: intrptr

Radio telescopes....and they are not "limited" as to how far away they can see, they are only "limited" by how sensitive of a signal they can pick up.

The further you look out into the universe (whether it be with your eyes, a telescope that uses optics, or a radio telescope), the further back into time you are seeing.

When you look back far enough, this is what you see:



The Cosmic Background Radiation. There are no stars at that point.

In fact, if you want to see stars, you have to look about 400 million years after the above picture, because conditions in the universe before that were not right for star formation:



You also are skipping over the fact that there were NO heavy elements in any quantity until about 7 to 8 billion years ago, and even then not really a lot to shout about. In order to build things that can transmit RF energy or other signals, you're going to need those heavy elements.

This isn't guess work, we know this from actually looking at the spectra of those first stars. It's not until you get to Population 1 stars like our sun that you finally have much larger amounts of elements.

Okay, so we're still talking 5 to 8 billion years ago. That's a respectable amount of time.

Ah.....but here is the thing: how long did it take for life to develop on another planet? How long did it take before something on those planets became intelligent enough to start using tools? And how long before they began using technology that was advanced?

The only place we know of right now that we can use as a template is: Earth.

We know the planet formed about 4.5 billion years ago. We know from the fossil record that the first life forms here on Earth formed about 3.8 billion years ago. We know again from the fossil record that life stayed quite simple and microbial in form until about 500 million years ago. We don't find the first stone tools until about 3 million years ago.

For those that keep saying that because the universe is around 14 billion years old there should be all sorts of civilizations out there, need to put the brakes on and actually take a look at what was going on in the universe that far back. Because for several billion years after the Big Bang, there was not much of anything except hydrogen. It took a long time for other elements to be fused and formed by the very first stars...and then spread out

I have a hard time believing that those first stars which may of had hydrogen gas giants as planets (sorry, won't get a rocky planet out of hydrogen) evolved some sort of purely hydrogen beings that became intelligent and built civilizations on nothing but hydrogen.

Even at 8 billion years ago when heavier elements were much more available, we have to ask: how long before any life formed? How long before they became intelligent?

And the big question: how often does that happen?

Right now we, humans, are stuck at a water hole that is also an oasis in the middle of a vast desert. We suspect that there may be other water holes out there....but we don't know how many of them......we don't if they also are oasis......and we don't know if they may be occupied by other people.

... and could it be that we already had contact. And that the general public simply doesn't get the info. The same adagio , lightspeed constant... because well it's a constant. Believe in the honesty and transparancy of science. So many blackops , so many funds missing but still people dont ask real questions. Burkhard Heim FTL travel impossible ? Science paints a beautiful picture ... we almost know it all. And what we know of physics seems very well suited to create consumer products. Antigravity a dream free energy a dream ? , all hoaxes ? but Iphones a fact. Look deeper there is a whole agenda keeping the general public out of the loop. I Investigated abductions of primitive tribes in the Congo. Some of them never saw a car. Still the same abduction stories as in the West. And there it stops that is all humanity can do at this stage , the rest is an endless tug of war..

Humans Like cattle in the box , but now slowly awakening ,questioning reality and time. Maybe a few may quantum leap into the future. A better future in a place that was once the genesis of humanity.

Find your master , and follow your karma... And if your master is an alien pleasse let me know
Greetings

Very interesting and well-written series.

Neutrino based communication is in its infancy and has been focused on sending messages to nuclear submarines. There is already discussion on its future role (100 years from now) in sending interstellar messages. Maybe this is the level of technological advancement needed for communication with alien civilizations.

"it may well be that neutrinos are considered by extraterrestrial civilizations to be a more advanced method of communication than radio waves."

The First Message Using a Neutrino Beam

Making this possible will be advances in our ability to detect neutrinos, and it’s clear how tricky this will be. The recent neutrino message at Fermilab, created by researchers from North Carolina State University and the University of Rochester, is a case in point. Fermilab’s NuMI beam (Neutrinos at the Main Injector) fired pulses at MINERvA, a 170-ton detector in a cavern some 100 meters underground. The team had encoded the word ‘neutrino’ into binary form, with the presence of a pulse standing for a ‘1’ and the absence of a pulse standing for a ‘0’.

3454 repeats of the 25-pulse message over a span of 142 minutes delivered the information, corresponding to a transmission rate of 0.1 bits per second with an error rate of 1 percent. Out of trillions of neutrinos, an average of just 0.81 neutrinos were detected for each pulse, but that was enough to deliver the message. Thus Fermilab’s NuMI neutrino beam and the MINERvA detector have demonstrated digital communications using neutrinos, pushing the signal through several hundred meters of rock. It’s also clear that neutrino communications are in their infancy.

Much discussion of SETI has been taken up with finding a suitable frequency for radio communication. Interesting arguments have been advanced for 21 centimeters, the water hole, and other wavelengths. It is hard to reason satisfactorily on this subject; only the detection of a signal will tell us whether or not we are right. Neutrino detection schemes, on the other hand, are broad band, that is, the apparatus is sensitive to neutrinos of a wide energy range.

The fact that neutrinos pass through the earth would also be an advantage, because detectors would be omnidirectional. Thus, the whole sky can be covered by a single detector. It is perhaps reasonable to search for messages from extraterrestrial civilizations by looking for the neutrinos they are transmitting, and then switch to electromagnetic means for further conversations.

In 1979, Pasachoff and Kutner calculated that a 1 trillion electron volt proton beam, located at the distance of Tau Ceti (11.88 light years), would need a detector ten times the mass of the Earth. It would be interesting to know how far this technology has advanced in reducing this calculated mass.

Neutrino Communications: An Interstellar Future?

Neutrinos for Interstellar Communication

a reply to: eriktheawful

For those that keep saying that because the universe is around 14 billion years old there should be all sorts of civilizations out there, need to put the brakes on and actually take a look at what was going on in the universe that far back.

I hold that the Universe is infinite and boundless, i.e., there is no barrier.

If there is, whats beyond that? And that?

Infinity.

This means if there is no end to space, then going to the edge of the Universe and then beyond it, so far beyond that the Universe becomes a small blob... who puts the universe the only thing in all of infinite eternity?

What a waste of space. If I was infinitely big i would have always been there, be full of matter and especially, full of life.

14 billion light years is a small distance in infinity. Always been there is a short time in eternity.

I know, we can only see so far...

Exactly

a reply to: Morrad

In 1979, Pasachoff and Kutner calculated that a 1 trillion electron volt proton beam, located at the distance of Tau Ceti (11.88 light years), would need a detector ten times the mass of the Earth. It would be interesting to know how far this technology has advanced in reducing this calculated mass.

12 light years away and a detector ten earth masses?

I'm hanging up, the service is lousy.

Couple things :

Einstein's theory of special relativity sets of the speed of light, 186,000 miles per second (300 million meters per second). ... The speed of light is constant, or so textbooks say. But some scientists are exploring the possibility that this cosmic speed limit changes, a consequence of the nature of the vacuum of space. (Remember, its a Theory)

Quantum teleportation :

Just 5 days ago .. reports by Chinese scientists that they had transmitted the quantum state of a photon on Earth, to another photon on a satellite in low Earth orbit, some 1,400 kilometers away.

Article : www.nature.com...

Its just a matter of time before communications has no delay. Instant information, received at the moment its sent. If that's the case, then we might soon have the ability to communicate across the cosmos without delay.

Exciting times

That Guy that used to Play Superman in the Movies says not to Contact them, I gotta believe himsince he was born on Endor.



Since at least 2010, Hawking has spoken publicly about his fears that an advanced alien civilization would have no problem wiping out the human race the way a human might wipe out a colony of ants. "We don't know much about aliens, but we know about humans. If you look at history, contact between humans and less intelligent organisms have often been disastrous from their point of view, and encounters between civilizations with advanced versus primitive technologies have gone badly for the less advanced. A civilization reading one of our messages could be billions of years ahead of us. If so, they will be vastly more powerful, and may not see us as any more valuable than we see bacteria."

a reply to: eriktheawful

we are a young species in an old universe, whoevers been around longer than us for possibly billions of years would have a better communication system than RF lol, they would have mastered quantum entanglement (spooky action at a distance) and would be able to communicate instantly over an infinite amount of space using the technology.

Communications problem solved.

a reply to: ChrisM101

If we're as valuable as bacteria that means we're plentiful in the universe... is he dropping hints?

My personal view is intelligent life in the universe is none existent except the Human race here on Earth. If quantum entanglement is used for communication. There is noway to eavesdrop on a transmission.

In a hundred thousand years, if the human race hasn't destroyed itself, technological advancement will make the universe a very small place and there won't be any room for more than one civilization.

Technological advance propagates exponentially.

originally posted by: Triton1128
Couple things :

Einstein's theory of special relativity sets of the speed of light, 186,000 miles per second (300 million meters per second). ... The speed of light is constant, or so textbooks say. But some scientists are exploring the possibility that this cosmic speed limit changes, a consequence of the nature of the vacuum of space. (Remember, its a Theory)

Quantum teleportation :

Just 5 days ago .. reports by Chinese scientists that they had transmitted the quantum state of a photon on Earth, to another photon on a satellite in low Earth orbit, some 1,400 kilometers away.

Article : www.nature.com...

Its just a matter of time before communications has no delay. Instant information, received at the moment its sent. If that's the case, then we might soon have the ability to communicate across the cosmos without delay.

Exciting times

Entanglement cannot possibly be used for communication. There is no control at home over the quantum state of the "home" particle, and thus the quantum state of the distant particle can have no other meaning.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

That's what I heard as well. Even measurements would collapse the entire state of the entagled system.

Hurdles or boundries?

a reply to: eManym

The universe is very large. Outside of our galaxy, I doubt detection of other civilizations is possible ever, no matter how advanced we become. Therefore, there really isn't a Fermi Paradox, at least as I understand the term, with respect to potential intelligent life in other galaxies since they would not be expected to be detectable. I am of the view that other intelligent life in the Milky Way is very rare, but, to state none exists, while possible, seems unlikely. But, until we detect other intelligent life, you could be correct. I am guessing there are 20 or fewer intelligent civilizations in the Milky Way. Even if there were 40, if they were evenly spread out, they could each be at least 5,000 light years away from each other. Which makes practical communication based on the current understanding of physics impractical. Detection virtually impossible. In the other thread, I used the Occam Razor argument.1. They don't exist, your argument. 2. The laws of physics as we understand them now are correct. Therefore, unless they are close, detection is practically impossible. Those are simple explanations and the most likely in my view. So, I used your argument as #1, as it is the simplest. But, #2 is also simple.

originally posted by: zeroPointOneQ
a reply to: Harte

That's what I heard as well. Even measurements would collapse the entire state of the entagled system.

Hurdles or boundries?

Measurement of the "home" particle is what causes the distant particle to collapse into a specific quantum state.
You can't predict the "home" particle quantum state before measuring it, and you can't make the particle assume a specific quantum state.
So you can't send any information at all, except for the quantum state you found when measuring.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Thanks for clearing that out (this is all rather new for me), though it was clear to me this couldn't be used for communication.

Interesting stuff none the less.

The following free e-book on the subject could be an interesting read:

Archaeology, Anthropology, and Interstellar Communication
By Douglas A. Vakoch

Download: www.nasa.gov...

Except for the times we have been allowed to, we aren't going to see or hear 'aleens' until we pass away, pass on, die, transcend, transfigure, whatever we call that.

My 'proof' is, up till now, with all our 'advanced' instruments, we haven't seen or heard them. Not even once.

Because they are in another dimension, realm, place (whatever we call that).

Because the reports of both spooks and aleens have them appearing and disappearing before our eyes, violating 'known laws of physics, becoming different shapes and behaving like mist, orbs, shadows, lights, see thru, etc, etc.

What we call cloaking, light speed, jumping, fantastic speed and maneuvering is due to their ability to appear to us in fixed time and space, but alternately not being bound by 3d ville, any more than we are bound by 2d ville.

a reply to: WhyDidIJoin
Oh he absolutley knows that life is plentiful but, that humanity as a whole sucks to be honest, More advanced civilization may want to wipe us away like youd use bleach to clean a germy countertop.

If we cant unite those on this world, would they allow us to pollute the galaxy with the greed/fighting/hate that we all deal with.