The transgender con ? Many transgender regret switch

a reply to: Sheye

Sheye, don't let the posse gang up on you and discourage you from expressing how you truly feel. Let me reassure you there is nothing wrong with expressing real concerns.

They are every bit as much of what they accuse others of being, so let them continue to expose themselves.

The only way to having a real and honest discussion is to hear all opinions, no matter how unfathomable or extreme it may be to some. NOT suppressing opposing views with ad Homs and insults. Which can be witnessed in abundance, which tells you all you need to know.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

We have been open minded to all opinions. I have read your and OP's threads and understood your point clearly. If there is any truth to OP's claim then of course I would be concerned about their plight. I just wish that you and OP and others would be open minded to our points and scientific evidence as well.

Deaf Alien -- I am very appreciative of your thoughtful and respectful disagreement for the OP and others in this thread. You inspire and encourage me to do my best in that sense as well (as lacking as I am in tact and diplomacy!)

But this is what I don't understand and I'm hoping you will skool me on:

First, about "if there is any truth to OP's claim." I'm not sure how you mean that. Truth as in if anyone has ever regretted reassignment surgery? It's not the OP telling others that they regret their surgery; it's the people themselves claiming they regret the surgery. So I'm not sure where the "if" comes from. Are you doubting those that say they regret their choice? Isn't a given that someone somewhere will regret that choice for some reason or another? As another poster commented, we all have regrets in life about something.

Second, and I'm not speaking for the OP here but only myself, I understand and accept that for some/many, gender reassignment surgery has been a blessing and a relief. It makes me sad that anyone should have to take such drastic and risky measures to find that comfort and happiness for themselves, and I wish and hope and pray we can find better solutions, but if that's all we've got and what works then I'm happy people have that option. What concerns me is that it is such an invasive and permanent remedy that can create as many problems as it may solve, and I do believe that we can find better options (at least for some) but that we're putting all our eggs into one basket... and not because it's best for the people suffering, but because it's best for the bank accounts of those who provide the services.

Finally, regarding the "science," that word has become one of the most abused and misrepresented words in our vocabulary. By definition, science requires that the same results can be replicated in the same circumstances each and every time without fail. Period. That is not the case with gender reassignment surgery -- at least not in terms of creating the desired mental/emotional outcome. Not even the physical outcome, since some patients will have complications that others do not.

So please skool me: What am I missing? Or misunderstanding?

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: Sheye

Sheye, don't let the posse gang up on you and discourage you from expressing how you truly feel. Let me reassure you there is nothing wrong with expressing real concerns.

They are every bit as much of what they accuse others of being, so let them continue to expose themselves.

The only way to having a real and honest discussion is to hear all opinions, no matter how unfathomable or extreme it may be to some. NOT suppressing opposing views with ad Homs and insults. Which can be witnessed in abundance, which tells you all you need to know.

Thank you .. I needed to read that . And yes .. I have a ways to go in how I let other members make me feel, but I always feel much better after I pray for them with sincerity.

I'll do my best not to insult, but it's difficult as it is a natural reaction to feeling attacked 😕

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Never once did I deny gender dysphoria, ever. In fact, about 100 pages ago, trailing back to page 1 of my thread, I have already acknowledged it.

My issue was never whether or not dysphoria is real, which I have expressed over and over already, but my concern is all of the under dynamics that CAN and WILL exist. No matter what anybody says, or how many links you can provide, nothing can refute this FACT.

It's gotten to the point where I can only engage with a handful of people on this topic, but it's reaching close to the point where I won't even bother anymore.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

We have been open minded to all opinions. I have read your and OP's threads and understood your point clearly. If there is any truth to OP's claim then of course I would be concerned about their plight. I just wish that you and OP and others would be open minded to our points and scientific evidence as well.

Deaf Alien -- I am very appreciative of your thoughtful and respectful disagreement for the OP and others in this thread. You inspire and encourage me to do my best in that sense as well (as lacking as I am in tact and diplomacy!)

But this is what I don't understand and I'm hoping you will skool me on:

First, about "if there is any truth to OP's claim." I'm not sure how you mean that. Truth as in [b[if anyone has ever regretted reassignment surgery? It's not the OP telling others that they regret their surgery; it's the people themselves claiming they regret the surgery. So I'm not sure where the "if" comes from. Are you doubting those that say they regret their choice? Isn't a given that someone somewhere will regret that choice for some reason or another? As another poster commented, we all have regrets in life about something.

Second, and I'm not speaking for the OP here but only myself, I understand and accept that for some/many, gender reassignment surgery has been a blessing and a relief. It makes me sad that anyone should have to take such drastic and risky measures to find that comfort and happiness for themselves, and I wish and hope and pray we can find better solutions, but if that's all we've got and what works then I'm happy people have that option. What concerns me is that it is such an invasive and permanent remedy that can create as many problems as it may solve, and I do believe that we can find better options (at least for some) but that we're putting all our eggs into one basket... and not because it's best for the people suffering, but because it's best for the bank accounts of those who provide the services.

Finally, regarding the "science," that word has become one of the most abused and misrepresented words in our vocabulary. By definition, science requires that the same results can be replicated in the same circumstances each and every time without fail. Period. That is not the case with gender reassignment surgery -- at least not in terms of creating the desired mental/emotional outcome. Not even the physical outcome, since some patients will have complications that others do not.

So please skool me: What am I missing? Or misunderstanding?

Beautifully said... thank you so much for your participation in this thread. You have been enlightening and fair to both sides.

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: ReyaPhemhurth

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: ReyaPhemhurth

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

We have been open minded to all opinions. I have read your and OP's threads and understood your point clearly. If there is any truth to OP's claim then of course I would be concerned about their plight. I just wish that you and OP and others would be open minded to our points and scientific evidence as well.

But as always with Sheye and other's who believe the biased nonsense in OP's article and those that star many of Sheye's unfounded and unscientific posts....scientific research and evidence..and the findings that are published within scientific, peer-reviewed reports are "biased". Somehow.

Classic of Sheye. You prove the source in which she is trying to post from is a biased article that does not cite any true and unbiased, scientific sources and she pulls a "I'm rubber and you're glue! You're biased!"

Keep up with that strawman army and your baseless lies, Sheye!

Keep up the hate Reya... you can't prove they are baseless lies anymore than you can prove your scientific research and it's theories are correct.

I didn't start this thread to hurt anyone , and I thought people should be made aware of how some transgendered have had deep regrets.

But apparently that can't be true .. and I'm posting lies..
Good grief ... I can well imagine the hell some trans are put through by their communities if they dare speak out concerning regret of transition.

We simply must agree to disagree ... you are in my prayers.. God bless you

It's not hate. You're pushing your ignorance within a public forum. And you expect not to get called out on it. Whether it is by myself or by the many others who have called you out on it, you play victim following our request for evidence to support your claims. In the many other threads you have posted in, ACTUAL peer-reviewed scientific studies have been posted for your review to show you why your claims are wrong. Did you ever read ANY of them? No. You further push ignorance by shrugging your shoulders and saying "You can't prove what they're saying is true."

Do you know anything about the scientific process at all, Sheye? Thus far, you have shown myself and many other posters and readers on this site that you do not. Do you know anything about how such evidence is gathered and published and then further reviewed by peers within the field to ensure further scientific validity and accuracy?

Again, I would assume by your unwillingness to read or attempt to understand as a telltale sign that you do NOT understand. Actual scientific studies have been linked to you in other threads about this same exact topic and you are completely unwilling to budge within your own bubble of ignorance.

I, personally, do not need to prove anything as I am not the scientist. But I am honest enough and open-minded enough to read the various reports and studies and change my opinion based on where the facts lead the narrative.

YOU on the other hand refuse to change your narrative to fit the facts. You post articles that DO NOT cite any actual scientific studies and are backed by foundations that are against the very same concepts in which you're conveying that you're against. Again. This is called confirmation bias.

You're famous for it. No one is hating on you. It's not hating. It's correcting.
I will now await your cognitive dissonance.

In the meantime, I found your bucket where you keep your claims:

If peer reviewed science is so correct why does it keep changing its theories over time.

That still doesn't take away from the fact that 1 in 5 transgendered have a very difficult time transitioning, and if they call out blame for this on peeps who don't accept them, then they are the ones lying.

Transgendered must be aware that not everyone will agree with the choices they make before transgendering as an adult, and they should act like adults and accept the fact people will have differing opinions.

Oh .. and yeah .. you've been hating on me this whole thread and others. Your posts are dripping with condescending and hateful remarks trying to make yourself appear more intelligent and more " correct".

I'm not making myself appear like anything. It's you This is all being concocted in your head. It's not my fault you're taking my attempts to correct your blatant ignorance towards concepts that have been scientifically shown to be contrary to the assertions in which you're making. You post unfounded nonsense and when you are called out you classically play the victim. Anyone else would attempt try to put forth some form of evidence that is backed by scientific study to back themselves up.

You continue to lack a leg to stand on and therefore, your claims and agenda crumble around your very ears. The proof is in how personal you're taking my posts.

And where is your evidence to prove your assertions? And biased articles do not count. I wouldn't make a claim that President Trump is a lizard alien king and use an article from DTrumpTheLizrdKing.com as a source to back up my claims. That is confirmation bias.

So, with that being said (again and again) where is your unbiased evidence that backs your claims?

a reply to: Boadicea

I am sure there are some who regret sex change surgery (few transgender people had surgery anyway). But if they regret, it could be due to various reasons, not transgenderism itself. I've looked at the articles in the OP and I've googled them and I noticed one thing in common: they're all faith-based articles and sites. Gay men have expressed regrets as well when they "converted" to Christianity or went through conversion therapy. If you can find an unbiased and non faith based article I'll be happy to read it.
What would be a better option? Most transgender people don't want sex change operation anyway.
Are you aware that the article in the OP used the poll for cosmetic surgery which has nothing to do with sex change operation? That should raise an alarm bell in your head on how much they are attempting to push their narrative.

a reply to: ReyaPhemhurth

So, with that being said (again and again) where is your unbiased evidence that backs your claims?

This is my evidence , but you call it biased , and that won't seem to change.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. … Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: … "There's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized — often to the point of committing suicide."

It's from the OP

a reply to: Sheye

Beautifully said... thank you so much for your participation in this thread. You have been enlightening and fair to both sides.

Thank you. I'm really trying!!! And right back atcha!

Hate and hostility never gets the job done. Reason and respect can go a long way though...

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

I am aware that you have never denied gender dysphoria. The point is about the children. Your claim that they are confusing the transgender children. How the hell do you confuse a transgender child that is already born with gender dysphoria? That makes no sense. Most parents have tried everything to make their transgender children accept their biological sexes. You said we should let them mature and explore the dynamcis which I have repeatedly agreed with. If they are transgender then allow them to express their gender identity and explore that dynamic.
If they deliberatly try to push this on children or try to confuse them then as I have stated before I would stand besides you and fight it.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Are you aware that the article in the OP used the poll for cosmetic surgery which has nothing to do with sex change operation? That should raise an alarm bell in your head on how much they are attempting to push their

Actually they were included... so it does apply.

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Deaf Alien

Are you aware that the article in the OP used the poll for cosmetic surgery which has nothing to do with sex change operation? That should raise an alarm bell in your head on how much they are attempting to push their

Actually they were included... so it does apply.

Transgender people were included? Can you link me to that poll? Besides the poll is for cosmetic surgery which means appearance on your face like ears, noses and such and that's too broad. People were already depressed BEFORE cosmetic surgeries. That's why they go through many counseling sessions.

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: ReyaPhemhurth

So, with that being said (again and again) where is your unbiased evidence that backs your claims?

This is my evidence , but you call it biased , and that won't seem to change.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. … Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: … "There's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized — often to the point of committing suicide."

It's from the OP

First and foremost, what 'science' report they are drawing from is regarding an Arif study done almost 15 years ago. Other studies have been done (see the other threads in which you have posted in regarding this topic for the links to the updated reports). Secondly, there are other problems with this 2004 study. It was not a double blinded study regarding SRS, which takes away from the intention to use this as a means to say "gender reassignment is not effective." Because this is not what the original study was intended to convey. The original study from 2004, mentions how they could neither prove or disprove the effectiveness of SRS.

The reason being is that many of those involved in the initial stages of the scientific process ultimately dropped out of the research. This does not allow for a full study and it also allows for the study to be viewed as incomplete, or in the way they've worded it: inconclusive. Why did so many of those that actually had the SRS drop out of the study? In the end, it's speculatory, much like it would be from any angle. But your article in OP misuses the information from the already dated study and makes it appear as though it proves "ineffectiveness", which...if you read the ACTUAL report, you would see that they could not prove it as effective, but could also not prove that it was ineffective. Such inconclusiveness is one of the hazards of the science trade.

And like Deaf Alien has said, the vast majority of trans community members do not actually get the full SRS.

Did you read the original 2004 report, Sheye?

Judging by your confirmation bias, I'd say no.

So, it's not that the study in which they semi-reference is biased 'evidence'. It's how they decided to use the evidence within the actual report within your article in the OP.

And to answer your prior question about why science keeps changing...this should be a given. Our world's wonderful scientists continue to research things that are currently unknown and also research on concepts that were once thought to be known. This provides us with a better understanding of the world around us. We want to understand and find the truth. Science is always going to evolve because we become better and better at progressing and understanding through experimentation and research.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

As far as my understanding goes transgender surgery is still considered cosmetic surgery.

But lets say it's not... surveys and studies have shown that transgender surgery doesn't always end well.. so leave it at that.

a reply to: ReyaPhemhurth

Science is always going to evolve because we become better and better at progressing and understanding through experimentation and research.

Amazing how science has progressed to transform men into women and vice versa 🤔... but yet they can't find decent cures for cancer, even with all the billions of research money they get.

Maybe " science" doesn't really evolve, it just protects its cash cows, and money is really the driving force.

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Deaf Alien

As far as my understanding goes transgender surgery is still considered cosmetic surgery.

But lets say it's not... surveys and studies have shown that transgender surgery doesn't always end well.. so leave it at that.

It may be considered "cosmetic" surgery but did the poll include the transgender people? And why didn't you give me a link to that poll?
And you have not shown any surveys and studies yet.

a reply to: Sheye

LOL. "Transforming" men into women? That sounds like a futuristic sci fi scenario where they transform the entire DNA structure which transform the entire body into the opposite sex.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Boadicea

I am sure there are some who regret sex change surgery (few transgender people had surgery anyway). But if they regret, it could be due to various reasons, not transgenderism itself.

Thank you -- fair enough, and no argument here.

I've looked at the articles in the OP and I've googled them and I noticed one thing in common: they're all faith-based articles and sites.

I do have to disagree here... for example, one of the studies Sheye cited was from a university, requested by The Guardian:

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

The Guardian asked Arif to conduct the review after speaking to several people who regret changing gender or believe that the medical care they received failed to prepare them for their new lives. They explain why they are unhappy with their sex change and how they cope with the consequences in the Weekend magazine tomorrow (July 31).

Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: "There is a huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing. While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide."

Gay men have expressed regrets as well when they "converted" to Christianity or went through conversion therapy.

Yes, I'm sure they have -- and probably rightfully so. I come from an unorthodox Christian background, and much of what passes for "Christianity" is not the Christianity that I know. Jesus did not condemn gays, Jesus did not tell them "to sin no more," and Jesus explicitly told us to love everyone -- not to change them.

If you can find an unbiased and non faith based article I'll be happy to read it.

All I have for now is the one I quoted above from The Guardian: Sex changes are not effective, say researchers

What would be a better option? Most transgender people don't want sex change operation anyway.

Well, no surgery is definitely one option!

However, for one example of a possibly better option, there is a school of thought that for many (perhaps most) male-to-female transgender persons, that the culprit is too much testosterone. And there is some anecdotal evidence based on transgenders' personal experiences (not proof, just evidence) that hormone blockers alone will relieve the feelings of gender dysphoria. However, to the best of my knowledge, no such study has been done to find out if this is true; and, if true, to what extent the excess testosterone is the cause of those feelings of gender dysphoria. Rather, female hormones are always given simultaneously with the hormone blockers.

Here is one such anecdotal example -- and I understand the subjective and therefore limited value of personal anecdotes. But personal experience can also lead us to better research, better clinical studies, and therefore -- hopefully -- better options and better outcomes.

That should raise an alarm bell in your head on how much they are attempting to push their narrative.

Oh, believe me, there are all kinds of alarm bells going off in my head!!!

I don't believe it's an accident or a coincidence that the most hateful voices are the ones we hear the most... but that goes for all sides. We -- as in society -- always seem to argue every issue from the most extreme positions. And that's gotta stop.

Thank you for responding to me. And, again, thank you for being civil and reasonable and respectful. It is very much appreciated.

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: ReyaPhemhurth

Science is always going to evolve because we become better and better at progressing and understanding through experimentation and research.

Amazing how science has progressed to transform men into women and vice versa 🤔... but yet they can't find decent cures for cancer, even with all the billions of research money they get.

Maybe " science" doesn't really evolve, it just protects its cash cows, and money is really the driving force.

Classic once more, Sheye.

You're creating a strawman again instead of actually and directly addressing the meat and potatoes of my post wherein I educate you on the incorrections within your biased OP. I also explained why it's biased. But you have nothing to say on that matter.
You just manage to find a slightly different way to say "Science isn't accurate."

Classic! Keep up the ignorance, Sheye!

Do you have anything of actual substance to say to what I said regarding your post containing what you purported was 'evidence' to back up your 'claims'?

Furthermore, do you care to answer any of my legitimate questions...like did you read the ACTUAL 2004 report (be it dated, at least it was at a time new within the scientific community)? and no, I'm not talking about the article in the Guardian. I'm talking about the ACTUAL report.

Or are you going to keep deflecting?

What is considered a "successful" (see happy and content) transition?

How do we know it was successful?

I wonder what the numbers are between those who committed suicide and those who died at a ripe old age.

Someone can be happy and content now, but what about 6 months, years, or decades from now?