New research on the Shroud of Turin

I have not written a thread is quite some time and I am so happy to get away from US politics to actually get back into the kind of threads that got me reading ATS.
So to start over the past few weeks I have heard that some new technique had been tried on the Shroud of Turin. Here is the link to the newest article I have come across about it. Link So now they are alleging that they have discovered evidence of blood particles on the shroud and not just any blood particles mind you.

New research indicates that the Shroud of Turin shows signs of blood from a torture victim, and undermines arguments that the reputed burial shroud of Jesus Christ was painted.

Now the article go's into some detail about the particles in particular [could't help myself] They are called nanoparticles and well here is a little something about them

The study of particles took place on the nanoscale – ranging from one to 100 nanometers. A nanometer is one billionth the length of a meter.

The claim is that new developments in the "field of microscopy" made this possible. The big statement though is this

And the nanoparticles are not typical of the blood of a healthy person. Rather, they show high levels of substances called creatinine and ferritin, found in patients who suffer forceful multiple traumas like torture. “Hence, the presence of these biological nanoparticles found during our experiments point to a violent death for the man wrapped in the Turin Shroud,” Fanti said.

Now for years arguments have raged about the actual age of the shroud, contamination of pieces used in previous tests and quite a few other aspects. I myself wonder if maybe this is the first big step in proving the shrouds authenticity. I am also wondering if it is possible to test the nanoparticles of blood they allege to have found. That could be very illuminating, what do you folks think?

a reply to: hangedman13

Great topic.Who is in possession of the shroud at this moment. I do not know.

a reply to: hangedman13

Very good thread.
S+F

I am confused on the shroud.

I seem to remember a fire-that threw off the carbon dating.
That people have tried to "paint" a copy and failed.
No one knows how the image was made.
A 3-d image digitized from the shroud.

Now nano blood. I will read your source in a minute-going to walk the dog, he won't wait...

a reply to: ericendtimes

The shroud is at a church in Italy.

The shroud is presently housed at Turin’s St. John the Baptist Cathedral.

From the link. I wasn't sure myself

a reply to: seasonal

Now that you mention it I recall that issue with the fire confusing carbon dating. I have a little skepticism over the blood myself, now I admit not being familiar with the procedure they used and it's accuracy. If the testing is legit and accurate.... Like I said in my OP I am curious as to if they can do any testing on the blood nanoparticles found.

a reply to: hangedman13

Nice find, thanks. I think the problem with the carbon dating was that there had been repair work done to portions do to either fire or mold damage and the portion selected to C-14 dating were from the repairs. This was considered highly suspect due to the fact that it is clear which portions are repair work and which are original.

Also, as usual, Seasonal is correct. There have been theories over the years as to how an artist could produce such a work but none of the theories have been able to translate into actually producing a suitable replica.

S&F, thanks.

a reply to: seasonal

I remember a few years back a light of some form was used to penetrate the shroud and prove it is not a fake. I have to think for a moment where I saw that. If I come up with it I will post link.

originally posted by: TobyFlenderson
There have been theories over the years as to how an artist could produce such a work but none of the theories have been able to translate into actually producing a suitable replica.

And nobody who thinks it was an actual body (Jesus Christ) laid on and covered by a cloth has been able to reproduce it either. This is what an actual face looks like when you put a cloth on it:

a reply to: hangedman13


I think it's a bit of a leap of logic to claim that elevated creatinine levels are indicative of a person being tortured. It excludes all other possibilities and with occasion razor, the more likely scenario is elevated creatinine due to kidney disease than a victim of torture.

The methodology of the research is sound. It's the conclusions that I'm a little skeptical about.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Agreed. I don't consider myself a Christian and don't have a dog in this fight. Just find it interesting. But doesn't my point combined with yours make it seem that the shroud is a genuine and extreme deviation from the norm or in other words, a miracle?

I'm trying to find a documentary that was published a few months ago. I can't find it right now, maybe someone here remembers it?

It was about recreating the face seen on the shroud in 3d. Once they did it virtually, they made a 3d physical model in order to try to recreate the imprinting of the face on the shroud. They found out that in order to be printed the way we see it is because the image was made like with a photocopier, with a bar of light going across the image, not like a direct photo.

I thought the doc was boring but somehow I managed through it and it is in the last 15 or 10 minutes that they explain that fact. I was amazed by that.
Some details might be blurry, but the photocopier one stuck in my mind.

a reply to: peter vlar

Ahh that is a good point! But in the end I think the take away is actual blood being found in the fibers. Considering this is new ground I bet they were a tad overzealous in their conclusion. Although after re-reading the article it wasn't just the creatinine it was creatinine and ferritin.

a reply to: NowanKenubi

I saw that as well but cannot remember where.Maybe history channel I think.

a reply to: seasonal

I can't link as im at work and using company time, but if i remember correctly, there was a documentary sometime back that demonstrated large amounts of heat and radiation were required to "burn" the image into the shroud. Coincidentally enough, you would think that would be the case if Christ was in fact:

A: wrapped in the shroud, and
B: He really did somehow rise from the dead due to some sort of unknown technology (ancient aliens, anyone?)

I'll see if i can pinpoint the documentary that showed the experiment and proof of that as a possibility.

edit: here's a link where Italian scientists claim an earthquake from 33 AD released radioactive neutrons caused the image. It doesn't get to the conspiratorial notion of resurrection, but they do (as well as many others) show that radiation would've been the cause of the image.

www.express.co.uk...

originally posted by: TobyFlenderson
Agreed. I don't consider myself a Christian and don't have a dog in this fight. Just find it interesting. But doesn't my point combined with yours make it seem that the shroud is a genuine and extreme deviation from the norm or in other words, a miracle?

Well, a "miracle" has a value judgment attached to it. There are things that happen that lie on the outskirts of the statistical norm, but they're not miracles. Like a baby landing safely in a tree during a tornado. Lot of stuff flying around, including babies. Over many years, one or two might land in a tree alive. But calling it a miracle implies that it wasn't just some curious happenstance but somehow something that happened because a force of some kind made it happen for some reason. You can say "God" saved the baby, but then you have to admit that "God" created the deadly tornado in the first place to make it happen.

You could buy into the unproven (and likely unprovable) notion that the Shroud of Turin was created by Superman Jesus who gave off radiation when he rose from the dead, and that the shroud itself somehow hovered over his body to create a clear impression, just so that it would get people to believe that Christianity offers a truer cosmology than the other religions. But that's a lot of undefined dots to connect, and after a while, the plausibility falls down. Using the term "miracle" is pretty much the same as saying, "well, I don't know how this happened, but it did, so it must have been for a purpose." There's nothing to indicate that, at all.

Shroud should have an image which should have been on 3 dimensional person, it is 2 dimensional picture. If you wrap a shroud around a person which has oiled body and unwrap it.. you will see a totally different image than what shroud has.

Catholic church has always been after peoples money, moving "relics" from town to another was successful business back then. There has been multiple fake relics and propably will be.


Sudden take off ? shroud like a negative which is left ? i am curious of course

The Shroud is so steeped in controversy these days that no matter what you can "prove" about the shroud on way or another, there will be someone to argue the opposite. All it amounts to is proof for the believers and not proof to the non-believers. It's never going to be more than that.

originally posted by: NowanKenubi
I'm trying to find a documentary that was published a few months ago. I can't find it right now, maybe someone here remembers it?

It was about recreating the face seen on the shroud in 3d. Once they did it virtually, they made a 3d physical model in order to try to recreate the imprinting of the face on the shroud. They found out that in order to be printed the way we see it is because the image was made like with a photocopier, with a bar of light going across the image, not like a direct photo.

I thought the doc was boring but somehow I managed through it and it is in the last 15 or 10 minutes that they explain that fact. I was amazed by that.
Some details might be blurry, but the photocopier one stuck in my mind.

Bright light like a transfiguration?

My faith won't change whether the shroud is authentic or not, but it is a fascinating subject. Thanks for starting this thread, OP!

originally posted by: NowanKenubi
It was about recreating the face seen on the shroud in 3d.

I saw one a while back that did that, and it seemed to show that the body wasn't normal, rounded body-shaped, but it was more like a flattened carving, like a bas relief statue. Like Han Solo in carbonite.

So if you can imagine a sculptor creating a life-size sculpture of a common depiction of Jesus (the Bible says several times that "Jesus" was more of a concept than an actual person, and that Jesus appeared as many different people, including children). Maybe it was made from red clay or iron-laden stone, then it was draped with a cloth for storage or shipping. Check out the top of the head, where the front and back should connect in one long line of hair, but they don't. Maybe it was hot (thermal radiation) either when it was made or as it sat out in the sun, and the image was transferred onto it. Pre-photography impression. A worker sees the image and hauls it over to the church. And so the games began.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NowanKenubi
It was about recreating the face seen on the shroud in 3d.

... (the Bible says several times that "Jesus" was more of a concept than an actual person, and that Jesus appeared as many different people, including children). ...

Could you please point us to the bible verses that refer to Jesus as a concept instead of an actual person?