Is it a sin to war in God's eyes?

I was talking in the ATS FlashChat a few minutes ago and somebody had told me that war was a sin. I was explainig that war was not sinful in God's eyes suprisingly because there was war going on back then. I believe it was Isreal and Pakastan fighting and warring all the time. I know it is sinful to kill another person, but what if it meant fightning for your heritage and your country? It mistifys me and ive always wondered that. I think it was my grandma who told me that killing the person on the otherside wasnt sinful.

Um israel and Pakistan have not been fighting for ages. Pakistan didnt exist as a country till last century.

But the god of the bible, judging by his indiscriminate destruction of people, his mudering rampages because some tribes wouldnt appease his ego, and his commands to Israel to rape, pillage and plunder, it seems that if you believe in the Christian god, then war is perfectly acceptable. After all, if god can commit mass murder, why cant we?

Well, my sensitivities will not allow me to say indiscriminate. But really, right through the Bible, there is quite a bit of mention of war, fighting and destruction and God himself warns that he will bring wrath on those who deserve it. So, my view is that it really depends what the true reason for having war is.

The Dogma of the Old Testament, Quaran, Talmud, and many Indian, Greek, Roman, Pagan, Polytheistic, and animist religions revered, encouraged, and to some extent deified war in a multitude of ways over many, many centuries. The New Testament is considerably less bloodthirsty but by no means Anti-War.

War and Religion have gone hand in hand at least as far back as Jericho. I don't know any history before that point, but ever since War and Religion have been inseperable dance partners. Religion probably had its roots before war blossomed, but religion was adapted to war as easily as a duck takes to water.

See, the truth as I see it; Mankind evolved on war, it's in our blood. Ants war, baboons war, hyenas and lions war. Animals even murder, despite many who make claims to the contrary. Animals commit assaults, rapes, robberies, and all manner of treachery and deceit. We are made from animals, and retain a reptile brain that is responsible for all our unconcious maneuvering and unexplained hungers. Religion was originaly a concious mental explanation for unconcious or unfamiliar impulses. It makes sense that religion actively took part in war and even to some extent shaped its character and strategy (the kamikazi or 'suicide bomber').

There is no sin in living as an animal, neither is there sin in living like a man, nor in killing and dying. The only real sins are trying to deny who you are, failure to breed, and gross, unnecessary, over the top corpulent f&%$ing greed, pure unmotivated avarice. Those are the sins in my subjective reality.

The only time it becomes a sin, is when the leader orders you into action that is against Gods will. For example, purposely killing innocent civilians, or using them to gain success in the war. When it becomes acts of Murder. Iraqi Militants are commiting murder (to us) by not wearing any uniforms to seperate them from civilians, and using non-combatants to protect themselves in battle, or against US soldiers. A lot of hoopla is made by victums about destroying a milk factory with a bunch kids insdie, yet they don't tell you that they were also making biological weapons in there too

Often soldiers can justify going to war and killing people by thinking of it as a form of self-defense. "if I dont kill him now, he might kill me, or my buddy later on"

I have a good freind that is a retired Major in the army, and is now an Ancient History teacher, For him knowing that the bible said "Thou shall not Murder" instead of "Thou shall not kill" brought a great amount of peace to him.

If Jesus is the perfect example of how we should behave then I
still believe that we should'nt ever kill.
There are plenty of other ways to get things done besides killing
someone.
Killing is simple. Noone wants to think of more creative ways of
changeing things other than that?
Why is'nt our nation's government intelligent enough to think of these other ways?
I don't understand war.
It's so barbaric and makes us all so sad.

Dang. I had a 5 paragraph really long post on that other thread that took me about 20 minutes to write being the gimp I am currently, but while I was typing the thread was closed and my post was lost. Hitting back took me to the recent page. That was a bummer, and I don't feel like typing all that out again with one hand. Maybe tomorrow I will, but there is scripture, both old and new Testament, including Jesus's words, which allows killing but not murder. Check out Luke when Jesus is arrested. I will close with the same question, tho:

If someone broke into your house and was raping your children and the only way to stop them was to end them, what do you do?

as posted by elaine
If Jesus is the perfect example of how we should behave then I
still believe that we should'nt ever kill.
There are plenty of other ways to get things done besides killing
someone.

Glad you have "if" in there, cause I was going to mention the mere Old Testament Biblical happenings of 'God' decreeing to the Israelites to kill and clear the Land of Canaan ie: the Land of Milk and Honey), among other things.





seekerof

Unfortunately, the answer to this question completely depends on which side of the gun you're standing on. Sad but true. To quote John Lennon,
"God is a concept, by which we measure our pain."

Originally posted by junglejake
Dang. I had a 5 paragraph really long post on that other thread that took me about 20 minutes to write being the gimp I am currently, but while I was typing the thread was closed and my post was lost. Hitting back took me to the recent page. That was a bummer, and I don't feel like typing all that out again with one hand. Maybe tomorrow I will, but there is scripture, both old and new Testament, including Jesus's words, which allows killing but not murder. Check out Luke when Jesus is arrested. I will close with the same question, tho:

If someone broke into your house and was raping your children and the only way to stop them was to end them, what do you do?

I'd be very interested if you do post where Jesus says "killing is allowed".
And when you post I'll take it into my consideration.
But remember, the Bible scriptures have different meaning to each who
reads them.

Jesus kills, tho it isn't Humans, but deamons and animals

Luke 8:26-33 26They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demonpossessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!”29For Jesus had commanded the evil[c] spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.

30Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

32A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

When Jesus goes to battle, it isn't against man, but sin. The average person does not have the power to drive out the deamons, or to stop a person from sinning. That is why we hve to resort to more primative and cruder methods.

Hell no!

God LOVES war! Ever read the Old Testament? He was crazy for the stuff! He commanded his followers to disembowel their enemy's pregnant women, to rape them, etc. He rained down fire and brimstone himself, sent down mists of death to poison infants, etc. Well, at least until Jesus came and gave us Christianity Light...

What part of 'Thou shall not...'

doest thou nottest understandith?

I really wanted to jump onto the quotes, show the full context and then post some quotes of my own but after so many pages of back and forth and others' desire for me to not do that, I'll put the Book down and talk more on understanding than print.

Non-Christians. If you want to determine if a Christian is on target or not, please consider: A Christian is a believer in God and follower of Christ, who he was, what he said and what he did. Pick one gospel (aka record of Christs' time on earth), give it a read-through, then by all means use what Christ says when questioning a Christian. What are they going to say? The wars of the Old Testament conquer Christ's Word? How ridiculous is that? That's analogous to saying "Since slavery came before Martin Luther King, slavery is the right thing to do." Even 10 commandment followers can tell you different. There were at one time wars. This is apparently the only thing people understood in this era. There was a focus on 'taking back the land given', but I don't see where God-believers were ever there to 'conquer the world'.

Christians, how did you feel about Jesus, teacher and saviour of mankind, getting totally tortured by what he had to say. If you have an ounce of feeling in you, you should be thinking, "This is not right" with a bunch of empathy flooding in. He was tortured and then what? Killed. Necessary though it may be, we see the pain of death in someone we should be caring about. Why in the world would you cause anybody else to feel that kind of pain? Why on God's green earth would you do that to someone else's family? Does this effectively spread the 'good news' and instructed by Jesus? Pick up a gospel and read it again. Then give Corinthians a read-through too.

Kudos to those who recognize the longing for peace in the Old Testament, and the message of love in the new.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
The average person does not have the power to drive out the deamons

Read the rest of the gospel, Jesus instructs people how to do this.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
, or to stop a person from sinning. That is why we hve to resort to more primative and cruder methods.

Everyone is a sinner, therefore everyone must be killed?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

The only real sins are trying to deny who you are, failure to breed, and gross, unnecessary, over the top corpulent f&%$ing greed, pure unmotivated avarice.

Failure to breed?

I'm hoping you can clarify that.

Originally posted by junglejake
If someone broke into your house and was raping your children and the only way to stop them was to end them, what do you do?

Glad you brought this up. Thelibra and I had an in-depth discussion about this same topic...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Conclusion. I may use non-lethal force but no, I would not kill them.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Jehosephat
The average person does not have the power to drive out the deamons

Read the rest of the gospel, Jesus instructs people how to do this.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
, or to stop a person from sinning. That is why we hve to resort to more primative and cruder methods.

Everyone is a sinner, therefore everyone must be killed?

Don't quote me out of context and even mangle them up. The average person in this world is without saving faith. Nor are they blessed with the holy spirit. Therefore without faith, without the holy spirit, they are unable to drive out deamons. Why don't you read the Gospel about how people can move mountains.

Since people do not have the faith to move mountains, they resort to cruder methods.. quciker, easier

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Don't quote me out of context and even mangle them up. The average person in this world is without saving faith. Nor are they blessed with the holy spirit. Therefore without faith, without the holy spirit, they are unable to drive out deamons.

My bad. I didn't know you considered an average person as one without saving faith/blessed/with the holy spirit. I understand what you're saying now.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Why don't you read the Gospel about how people can move mountains.

I liked that one. Agreed it is a great illustration.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Since people do not have the faith to move mountains, they resort to cruder methods.. quciker, easier

Gotcha gotcha, and you're saying that resorting to cruder methods is wrong, yes?

Little Lost Nuki
What's to clarify? My statement was clear as could be I thought. Human beings are biological engines with a single purpose, to replicate ourselves. If we don't do what we're designed to do, it mocks our design. I for one love to breed. Don't see how anyone couldn't.

Think of all the happy moments in your life, all the triumphs, all the wonderful sights and smells and sounds, all the friends and lovers, every smile, every laugh. Would you willingly deny that to another human being? Of course not. Failure to breed does just that.

Having testicles but producing no children is like having a garage full of oil paints but no willingness to paint. What good is a womb without a child to shelter? Seriously, there is a fatal genetic flaw in anybody who doesn't want/can't have children. I say that not out of malice, but out of pragmatism.

Originally posted by saint4God
Gotcha gotcha, and you're saying that resorting to cruder methods is wrong, yes?

Wrong, as not the best way to do things.. correct. Wrong as being a sin, it is mainly a mtter of intent wither it is a sin or not.

Jesus fought in a war, a war against sin. His battles were not in our physical world, but a spiritual one