LaVoy Finicum shooting: FBI agent indicted for alleged false statements

The law is just rule/regulation, not always righteous.

a reply to: Xcathdra

He was stopped and only fled AFTER being shot at. No it wasnt lawful at all it was a set up and planned murder using the law as cover.

originally posted by: butcherguy
I remember all those people saying that he deserved to be shot.

Finicum got what he orchestrated: A final shoot-out with LEOs.

I was disappointed he didn't draw his firearm. He sure made it sound like he would. And, when it got to a point where he was dancing with the devil, it seems like he got cold feet.

Now I realize I'm antagonizing this thread. I realize a good many people I have a great deal of respect for may be offended. But, Finicum wasn't in the role of 'good guy' when he died. All you have to do is look at the scenario dispassionately.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Xcathdra

Iy was a good shoot based on the criteria / law.

Only under color of law.

Law Enforcement acts under color of law. If law enforcement actions violate the law then it falls under 42 usc 1983.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Xcathdra

He was stopped and only fled AFTER being shot at. No it wasnt lawful at all it was a set up and planned murder using the law as cover.

Yet it was lawful... Why was the truck shot at during the initial stop? Why was he shot at during the second initial encounter? Why was he shot at the final encounter.

Totality of circumstances = good shoot.

No one committed murder.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: butcherguy
I remember all those people saying that he deserved to be shot.

Finicum got what he orchestrated: A final shoot-out with LEOs.

I was disappointed he didn't draw his firearm. He sure made it sound like he would. And, when it got to a point where he was dancing with the devil, it seems like he got cold feet.

Now I realize I'm antagonizing this thread. I realize a good many people I have a great deal of respect for may be offended. But, Finicum wasn't in the role of 'good guy' when he died. All you have to do is look at the scenario dispassionately.

I am curious as to why a member of the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team felt compelled to lie about what actually took place.
No wait.... the Hostage Rescue Team.... that's the crew that executed an unarmed woman holding a baby at Ruby Ridge, right?

Think about it.

It was a good shoot.
Everything that Finicum did brought this onto himself... right?

Why the need for the feds to lie about what happened?

Everything was all good, right?

Just to be clear, there is no valid excuse for any LEO to lie about what took place there.
There must be some reason for them to have lied.

a reply to: butcherguy

FBI agents might have been under orders not to fire unless A, B or C happens first.
The agent who fired may have thought it wasnt justified after the fact.
The agent might have gotten incorrect information prior to the encounter.
His actions, while in compliance wit the law / scotus rulings, might have been in violation of FBI policies and procedures.
The agent might have been just stupid when he lied.

Either way he will pay for it.

a reply to: Snarl

But, Finicum wasn't in the role of 'good guy' when he died.

Fair enough. But neither were law enforcement, particularly those who knowingly and deliberately orchestrated a deadman's roadblock knowing someone would die and they were determined to make sure it was LaVoy Finicum -- if not everyone with him.

LaVoy Finicum is dead. Whatever his crimes, he has paid the ultimate penalty. And he no longer poses any threat to anyone (if he ever did).

The FBI agents responsible for this are still a threat to anyone and everyone. And have yet to pay any penalty.

originally posted by: butcherguy
Just to be clear, there is no valid excuse for any LEO to lie about what took place there.
There must be some reason for them to have lied.

You've got a good point. I wonder if the truth of that will ever surface.

originally posted by: Boadicea
those who knowingly and deliberately orchestrated a deadman's roadblock knowing someone would die

I'll give you this too.

Finicum hit a cop with his car. That's all the excuse they needed to kill him. Fact is ... he gave them the excuse they were looking for.

I want you to look at things from the other perspective if it's possible.

Remember when LaVoy was sitting out there on his chair holding that rifle? ... waiting for a cop to 'trespass' the soil he was guarding? Was he not ready to kill those cops? He alluded to the fact that he was.

Finicum was living by the sword, and you know what that gets ya.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Boadicea
those who knowingly and deliberately orchestrated a deadman's roadblock knowing someone would die

I'll give you this too.

Finicum hit a cop with his car. That's all the excuse they needed to kill him. Fact is ... he gave them the excuse they were looking for.

You mean the cop that jump out in front of the truck, who was already shooting before the truck crashed.

Do you rewrite history much?

www.washingtontimes.com...

Deschutes County Sheriff Shane Nelson had harsh criticism Wednesday for multiple members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, saying that their actions during the 41-day siege with supporters of the anti-federal Bundy family had “damaged the integrity of the entire law enforcement profession, which makes me both disappointed and angry.”

He said that he told Justice Department and FBI officials, including now-acting Director Andrew McCabe, over a year ago about “possible criminal conduct by some involved FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) agents.”

originally posted by: CraftyArrow

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Boadicea
those who knowingly and deliberately orchestrated a deadman's roadblock knowing someone would die

I'll give you this too.

Finicum hit a cop with his car. That's all the excuse they needed to kill him. Fact is ... he gave them the excuse they were looking for.

You mean the cop that jump out in front of the truck, who was already shooting before the truck crashed.

Do you rewrite history much?

No he means the law enforcement officer who had to dive out of the way before Finnicum could hit him. Based on what occurred using deadly force at first encounter was allowable.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The agent might have been just stupid when he lied.

The FBI need s to put a sign up at their table when they hold their job fairs at high schools....
Join the FBI!
We hire stupid people!

a reply to: Snarl

Finicum hit a cop with his car....

As designed by the FBI.

That's all the excuse they needed to kill him.

That's the excuse they created to kill him.

Fact is ... he gave them the excuse they were looking for.

Nope. Fact is that they created the excuse they were wanting for the result they wanted.

I want you to look at things from the other perspective if it's possible.

I have. And it's despicable.

Remember when LaVoy was sitting out there on his chair holding that rifle? ... waiting for a cop to 'trespass' the soil he was guarding? Was he not ready to kill those cops? He alluded to the fact that he was.

Finicum was living by the sword, and you know what that gets ya.

Finicum was prepared to defend and protect himself. And they knew it. And so they made sure that he would have to choose between protecting himself and protecting others... he protected the others. Finicum is a hero.

It should also be noted that federal agents themselves spent much time and effort hassling and harassing townspeople while presenting themselves as occupiers.

originally posted by: flatbush71
www.washingtontimes.com...

Deschutes County Sheriff Shane Nelson had harsh criticism Wednesday for multiple members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, saying that their actions during the 41-day siege with supporters of the anti-federal Bundy family had “damaged the integrity of the entire law enforcement profession, which makes me both disappointed and angry.”

He said that he told Justice Department and FBI officials, including now-acting Director Andrew McCabe, over a year ago about “possible criminal conduct by some involved FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) agents.”

Yes.
Most criminals lie in order to cover something up.

An FBI agent has been indicted for lying about what happened the day that Finicum was killed.

What all were they trying to cover up?
The HRT has a history of shooting first and asking questions later.... and lying about what happened afterwards.

a reply to: Snarl

Have you seen the cell phone video from inside the vehicle?

Finicum reacted in seconds to seeing a deadmans roadblock set up around a curve in the road, by swerving around the roadblock. Then exited the vehicle with his hands up saying shoot me shoot me. There were two rounds fired at him while he had his hands up, one of which hit the truck and broke a window. It wasn't until a few seconds later that more shots were fired at Finicum.

The drone footage shows an officer jumping into the path of the truck when it swerved. Then the drone footage shows Finicum moving away from the truck with his hands up and then either a)clutching at his side or b) reaching into his jacket and then being fatally shot. The drone footage also shows rounds impacting behind Finicum in the snow (in the general direction of other officers whole were behind the truck near their vehicles).

Putting all of that together, it is arguable that this was a totally clean shoot. The first two shots fired at Finicum when he exited the vehicle with arms raised could be attempted murder by the HRT officer however with the roadblock / guy diving in front of or trying to dodge what he perceived as a vehicle threat to me that would be hard to prove in the matter of seconds it all happened.

I think the indictment for obstruction acknowledges that there were at least aspects of the hidden roadblock, initial shots fired (then covered up before the investigators arrived) that were inappropriate.

a reply to: Pyle

Yes, exactly!

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: CraftyArrow

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Boadicea
those who knowingly and deliberately orchestrated a deadman's roadblock knowing someone would die

I'll give you this too.

Finicum hit a cop with his car. That's all the excuse they needed to kill him. Fact is ... he gave them the excuse they were looking for.

You mean the cop that jump out in front of the truck, who was already shooting before the truck crashed.

Do you rewrite history much?

No he means the law enforcement officer who had to dive out of the way before Finnicum could hit him. Based on what occurred using deadly force at first encounter was allowable.

The officers involved created a situation where the suspect was forced into a blind road block and a road block that didn't give any other option of outcome then to shoot the suspect. They could have easily followed him to the sheriffs office however we all know they shot at him forcing him to run into a trap that they had already set. While not all the officers were in on this murder some were and it was planned. That is why the FBI lied and destroyed evidence....

I find it hard to believe with all the "trained law enforcement" on scene people did not have enough knowledge to secure a major crime scene and even over looked or "misplaced" shell casings.....

You may or may not have been there but you are definitely carrying water...Why I have no idea.

Let's not forget that if he hadn't illegally occupied (and destroyed) government property then there would have been no police stop with the FBI present. Then he wouldn't have died in that set of circumstances.

Cops / agents wrong or not we're doing their jobs (arguably poorly). Which constructive thing was he doing?