OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

No muaddib he is not a saviour like bush, but he may become a saviour for his peoples needs, and that is what it makes a good leader when the people can go to bed with a full stomach, and wake up to better tomorrow.

And remember we do have nice pictures of our politicias embracing dictators, it's all about politics.

Yeah, i have a great pic of rumsfeld and Saddam...
both looking so proud, like they had just shared a bed...

For everyone that doesn't like the way Chavez will do things... try to appreciate that what works for us, isn't what will work for others...

some people are not ready for freedom, and/or democracy...

a friend that had lived in china as a trade expert for many years, once told me... they wouldn't have a country if it wasn't for communism...

he was perhaps one of the most patriotic americans i had ever known, but he was saying that communism was the best thing for china...
different strokes for different folks...

Originally posted by marg6043
No muaddib he is not a saviour like bush, but he may become a saviour for his peoples needs, and that is what it makes a good leader when the people can go to bed with a full stomach, and wake up to better tomorrow.

And remember we do have nice pictures of our politicias embracing dictators, it's all about politics.

Do you have pictures of what people like Chavez actually do for their countries?....

Deny ignorance Marg....the US has backed people who have become dictators, yes it is true. The US has made many mistakes in the past. Would you have us continuing making those mistakes?....

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
..........
a friend that had lived in china as a trade expert for many years, once told me... they wouldn't have a country if it wasn't for communism...

he was perhaps one of the most patriotic americans i had ever known, but he was saying that communism was the best thing for china...
different strokes for different folks...

Really?, so I guess your friend agrees with the Chinese government taking people from the streets to sell their organs to rich people around the world....

i guess your friend agrees with the killing of unarmed Chinese, as was done in Tiananmen Square, because the govenrment had to stop the peaceful demonstrators....

Does your friend agrees with China taking Tibet by force? or having the Chinese government say they will attack Taiwan if they declare independance?....

Saying that communism is good for a country is saying that the millions of people who had died because of communism has been good for those countries....

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

No muaddib do you have pictures of what he does?

My father was in Venezuela last year he does visit Venezula since the 70s I will ask him if he saw something out of the ordinary while visiting.

We can argue back and forth about wetrher HC is good for the country/people or not... but the bottom line is this surely: with the track record of what US 'programs' do to south american countries (chile? need some kissinger/dr evil quotes on that? or maybe Nicaragua like i said before?)... quite frankly anything is better.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
..........
a friend that had lived in china as a trade expert for many years, once told me... they wouldn't have a country if it wasn't for communism...

he was perhaps one of the most patriotic americans i had ever known, but he was saying that communism was the best thing for china...
different strokes for different folks...

Really?, so I guess your friend agrees with the Chinese government taking people from the streets to sell their organs to rich people around the world....

i guess your friend agrees with the killing of unarmed Chinese, as was done in Tiananmen Square, because the govenrment had to stop the peaceful demonstrators....

Does your friend agrees with China taking Tibet by force? or having the Chinese government say they will attack Taiwan if they declare independance?....

Saying that communism is good for a country is saying that the millions of people who had died because of communism has been good for those countries....

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Ya know... those were almost the EXACT statements i made to him, and the attitude that i made them in (except the organ selling thing) ...
and yep... his answer was a surprising:
"you would have to live there to understand... but it is the only type of government that will work for them and keep them all busy and fed..." (BTW, he is a married, christian, respected international trade lawyer with 3 adopted chinese girls).

another example is IRAQ... Saddam is a terrible person, but that is the exact type of person that can rule a land divided by 4 very different peoples... they needed a bastard to rule with tyranny...to avoid civil war...
now they have a new civil war... which is better?

[edit on 7-2-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

[edit on 7-2-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

Originally posted by Corinthas
We can argue back and forth about wetrher HC is good for the country/people or not... but the bottom line is this surely: with the track record of what US 'programs' do to south American countries

The pain in the neck of bushes administration is Chavez that is why it wants him now, Chavez is making American oil base companies paid outrageous prices in tax for the oil.

That is what is killing bush.

Originally posted by marg6043
No muaddib do you have pictures of what he does?

My father was in Venezuela last year he does visit Venezula since the 70s I will ask him if he saw something out of the ordinary while visiting.

Didn't i post what a reporter saw happening to a woman who wanted to say she opposes Chavez and because she spoke her mind, it got her taken away by the police, and the police told the reporter to stay away from reporting the politics from Venezuela and to do a piece on the tourism?.....

The post is still in there, look at my other posts in this thread...

BTW, how convinient that when there is a protest against Chavez, many of the pro-Chavez people have guns and shoot at the protesters....killing them or injuring protesters.

Then shots were fired by unidentified gunmen at opposition marchers as they clashed with government supporters near the city's main military base.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

By Thursday, Apr. 11, the protestors' ranks had swollen to hundreds of thousands. Many were pressing forward towards the presidential palace in Caracas. Supporters of Chavez blocked the streets in an effort to keep the anti-government protestors away from the palace. Chavez ordered troops to surround his home in order to ``provide a cushion'' between him and the hundreds of thousand angry protestors. Although earlier in the week, government officials promised that they would not deal with the protests violently, police shot tear gas into the crowd in an effort to control them. What ensued was chaos. People began to run in fear and then shots were heard. When it was all over at least 14 were confirmed dead with nearly 100 wounded in a nearby hospital.

Protest leaders accused those who had fired at the protestors as being part of Bolivaran, pro-government circles. Alfred Pena, mayor of Caracas and strong opponent of Chavez, stated ``[the shooters] began to shoot like they were hunting, just firing away.''

Excerpted from.
www-stu.calvin.edu...

CARACAS, Venezuela--On Monday afternoon, dozens of people assembled in the Altamira Plaza, a public square in a residential neighborhood here that has come to symbolize nonviolent dissent in Venezuela. The crowd was there to question the accuracy of the results that announced a triumph for President Hugo Chávez in Sunday's recall referendum.

Within one hour of the gathering, just over 100 of Lt. Col. Chávez's supporters, many of them brandishing his trademark army parachutist beret, began moving down the main avenue towards the crowd in the square. Encouraged by their leader's victory, this bully-boy group had been marching through opposition neighborhoods all day. They were led by men on motorcycles with two-way radios. From afar they began to taunt the crowd in the square, chanting, "We own this country now," and ordering the people in the opposition crowd to return to their homes. All of this was transmitted live by the local news station. The Chávez group threw bottles and rocks at the crowd. Moments later a young woman in the square screamed for the crowd to get down as three of the men with walkie-talkies, wearing red T-shirts with the insignia of the government-funded "Bolivarian Circle," revealed their firearms. They began shooting indiscriminately into the multitude.

Excerpted from.
www.opinionjournal.com...

To find more about what is happening in Venezuela here is a link with a lot of articles linked which show what is happening in Venezuela.

www.fightthebias.com...


Of those who have been in strike in Venezuela in protest against Chavez, are the working class which he is sopposed to represent.

news.bbc.co.uk...

muaddib do you have an account of the deaths by all these actions?

I imagine that the US will make a big deal and will be all over the news, you know, more to inflame the American public against the evil regime of Chavez.

Originally posted by Corinthas
We can argue back and forth about wetrher HC is good for the country/people or not... but the bottom line is this surely: with the track record of what US 'programs' do to south american countries (chile? need some kissinger/dr evil quotes on that? or maybe Nicaragua like i said before?)... quite frankly anything is better.

Anything is better?...like what is happening in Cuba?...

is better to have all the populace, or most of them, being poor and starve to death than, as another member said, having people being able to excel in a capitalist country, having a large middle class system and some people that don't have what the middle class or what the rich have?...

Sure....since most of the population of a country can not be rich, let's have the majority of them being poor and starve.... It is better to share nothing with all, right?....

Originally posted by Muaddib

Anything is better?...like what is happening in Cuba?...

is better to have all the populace, or most of them, being poor and starve to death than, as another member said, having people being able to excel in a capitalist country, having a large middle class system and some people that don't have what the middle class or what the rich have?...

Sure....since most of the population of a country can not be rich, let's have the majority of them being poor and starve.... It is better to share nothing with all, right?....

Look cuba is poor coz of the US attempt to strangle it.. Strangle it then turn round and say it failed. Thats how the commies and facists managed to make the arachists look bad in spain after all.
Nicaragua managed to get an award for its health care (infant mortality rates were slashed) while it was being" ruthlessly opressed by the commies" and needed US "intervention". Oh yeah..

And Venezuela is another Nicaragua... the threat of a good example will be MADE to fail, in order to give people like you the profound argument of "look it failed".

Look you just keep believing the US is one big cuddly comfort bear out to help poor brown colored people with sticks... just go ahead, there are enough of us who can see it for the genocidal war machine that it is.

Did you also see the awful media footage that was pieced together to make it look like peole were protesting ? FAKE!!

Also did you know the firm Center Point (yes the one that helped rig YOUR election) helped get fake names for the petition the was signed against HC?

Man the amount of failed attemps by the US is making them look amateurish



[edit on 7/2/2005 by Corinthas]

[edit on 7/2/2005 by Corinthas]

Why's the US turning up the propaganda on Venezuela? Oh yeah, their covert coup attempts failed, so it's time to drum up support for overt actions involving direct US forces.

Funny how people so concerned with political demonstrators in Venezuela, when US demonstrations are now confined to specific 'free speech zones.'

Free speech zones - just as General Washington and Ben Franklin no doubt imagined by meaning freedom of speech! LOL

Forgive me if this is choppy, I've been through it several times to shorten it.
I have taken out most quotes to make this more readable.

Megaquad defends aggressive American policies in the name of profit and our apparent plans to attack socialist nations. He does so with the following arguements:
1. An erroneous equation of socialism to totalitarian government and communist economic policies.
2. Lists of failed communist nations and successful capitalist ones.
3. Flawed illustrations of socialism as a system whereby the lazy steal from the industrious.

I'll respond to these arguements as briefly as I can, then address a few quotes which show the true nature of Megaquad's beliefs.

The arguement that socialist policies are necessarily linked to totalitarianism and oppression is easily refuted. Most developed nations have socialized education systems. America has socialized retirement insurance and the great part of its problems are that it has been robbed by politicians who would rather give taxcuts to corporate profiteers and no-bid contracts to Halliburton in conquered nations rather than repay what they took from that fund in the past.
Socialist programs to provide the necessities of life to people on a non-profit basis can exist in a free and democratic society and can work. Corporate profiteering and the attendant social Darwinism in industries of necessity are the cause of what poverty and oppression there is in otherwise successful free nations.
Venezuela is by no means doomed to tyranny because of its leftist president. The fact is that FNC raised very few legitimate questions about Chavez' commitment to democracy. As I have pointed out, the "wrongly imprisoned" mayor they interviewed comes from a town where the police took action against the government! You are allowing your disapproval for socialism to keep you from calling militant propaganda for what it is.

The claim that any remotely socialist nation becomes a failed state such as North Korea or Cuba is intellectually bankrupt. Mauddib's informative reply to my earlier posts made it clear that it is the actions of a totalitarian ruler and his foreign profiteering off of Cuba's food supply which has been a major component of that nation's failure. (Thanks Mauddib, thats how you change opinions!).
"Socialized" medical care exists in many successful nations including Britain, Canada, Japan, France, etc. It is obviously possible for the government to help provide necessities at to more people at lower costs without compromising the liberty or economic security of the nation.
Did you know that it costs about 1000 dollars to get 4 stitches? Luckily I had insurance at the time. God help hard working people who don't have insurance, because our government and profiteering corporations sure wont.
So here it comes back to the topic of Venezuela: They are improving access to medical care and education through socialism. They are trying to build their nation on a system which is much criticized but by no means doomed to failure. Who are we to force them into our way of doing things when our way is flawed too?

Finally, I would like to refute the idea that as an advocate of socialization in key industries that I wish to recieve the benefits of another man's work for free while being lazy myself.
I think when we work in key industries we should be working for the government, which would not take a profit off the top. In return for good work we should recieve a fair wage with which we pay for necessities- which should be government operated non-profit industries and therefore cost less. In addition, there should be "skilled trade" bonuses to create incentives to do something more with yourself than just taking the easiest job you can find.
When I build ply my trade as an operating engineer and build a freeway I should work directly for the department of transportation, not for Yeager. Yeager's profit margin increases the costs to taxpayers! Yeager's desire to increase profit margin caused the outsourcing of our aggregate plants and put unionized American workers out of their jobs. That's bad for our economy, no matter how thin you slice it.
I advocate limited socialism to reduce costs in an effort to make the necessities universally available and keep citizens working. It's not bad for a nation and it's certainly not grounds to attack a nation. Let's not forget, this comes back around to the thread topic of Venezuela's government. Just because they are leaning left doesn't make them bad; it doesn't even make them wrong.

This response is already longer that I hoped, but I would like to draw attention to a pair of very telling statements about the expansionist capitalist mindset. These show that America's brand of capitalism succeeds only because by the rape of foreigners and disregard for the well being of the working class, whom Megaquad calls "lazy bums".

Should one man be allowed to dam up the flow of water to another man's property if it will turn a profit for him?

Depends to whom water belongs. If I bought it, it's mine.

This sums up what's wrong with ruthless capitalism very nicely. Megaquad believes that if you have enough money you can buy the right to take away what another man depends on for his livelihood.

By your logic, if you and I were both farmers, I could buy up the land around your fields and build a giant shade which kept your crops from getting sunlight almost always, and it would be OK for me to ruin your livlihood like that as well as reduce the food supply thereby starving others, just so that I could demand a greater price for my crops?

Suppose that you had a gun, and you were walking around in a place where everybody else had a gun too. You and somebody else get into an arguement over something stupid that is not worth a gunfight. Do you A. shoot him. B. Threaten him and hope he backs down instead of shooting you. C. Find common ground and compromise, even if it means not getting your way 100%.

D. Call USA to shoot him and free his oppressed underlings.

So if you were in an arguement over something that was not worth a gunfight, but you had a way of getting the other person shot without risk to yourself, you would have them killed? You sir have given the response I would expect only of a coward and a thief. I certainly hope that you gave it out of disrespect for the analogy rather than disrespect for human rights and decency.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by The Vagabond]

This thread started where the orignal poster and Muaddid are taking another, ATS thread about Venezuela

Venezuela looks at Colombia and says, 'hmmm, hundreds of American mercenaries, helicopters, drug killing running rampant, chaos, etc.' Not much to recommend allowing america in as a friend now is there.

That chinese oil deal better get done pretty quick or the U.S. Marines will be in Caracas.

The oligarchy was run out of Venezueala and America will try to put them back.
.

.edit link

[edit on 7-2-2005 by JoeDoaks]

The Vagabond

Very nice and well composed post, I will have to say some criticize what they can not understand.

We as citizens of our great nation have lost our priority amount our leaders, now everything comes with a price tag and a profit to be make and usually at the expenses of us.

Our nation is not longer for the people.

Now we tag other nations that wants their citizens to become priority evil and because we have forgotten about how it was to be priority, the speculations of an evil regime emerging in Venezuela it's feed by our government to us because Chavez doesn't want to sell its nation to American higher bidders he is evil.

It's so sad, I wonder when is going to be a leader in our nation that will put control on how big corporations profit from the American people.

If Chavez is so evil it will be more to be seen that the few reports of some.

I will wait and see.

Originally posted by Corinthas
Look cuba is poor coz of the US attempt to strangle it.. Strangle it then turn round and say it failed. Thats how the commies and facists managed to make the arachists look bad in spain after all.

BS, Cuba is poor for the asshole communist, and his communists buddies, living still there repressing the people in Cuba. Every freaking attempt by the freaking communists failed.....that's the truth, plain and simple.

You are a communist, or an anarchist? fine, be whatever you want to be, but don't go around trying to sell your fake story of commies failed because of the US.....which is BS...

We also have Nazis now-a-days tell us that there was no genocide done by Hitler and his cronies, and that it was all made up by the US and other countries......

Originally posted by Corinthas
Nicaragua managed to get an award for its health care (infant mortality rates were slashed) while it was being" ruthlessly opressed by the commies" and needed US "intervention". Oh yeah..

And Venezuela is another Nicaragua... the threat of a good example will be MADE to fail, in order to give people like you the profound argument of "look it failed".

Since you want to use a condescending attitude i will follow your lead...

It is people like you who keep trying to blame others, in this case the US, for the failings of systems that are bound to fail on their own. Communism can never exist how it is written in paper....for the simple fact that when you take away the ability of people to own properties and take away the ability of people to live up to whatever they can achieve, you will have a system that will fail because people have no real incentive to try to be better. How can you expect people to want to be better if at the end he/she will be treated and paid exactly the same as the lazy bum who skips work everytime he/she can?....

Originally posted by Corinthas
Look you just keep believing the US is one big cuddly comfort bear out to help poor brown colored people with sticks... just go ahead, there are enough of us who can see it for the genocidal war machine that it is.

You keep trying to make people think that communism or anarchy are great systems....those who are smart enough to see through your bs will not fall for it.

Originally posted by Corinthas
Did you also see the awful media footage that was pieced together to make it look like peole were protesting ? FAKE!!

LOL....yeah right...and people suffering in Cuba because of communism is also fake huh?.... and you expect someone who has lived through a hellhole of a communist regime, and who still has family in a hellhole communist country is going to fall for your diatrabe against the US?

Originally posted by Corinthas
Also did you know the firm Center Point (yes the one that helped rig YOUR election) helped get fake names for the petition the was signed against HC?

Man the amount of failed attemps by the US is making them look amateurish

Actually, your attempts to glorify communism and anarchy are the ones that look amateurish and are completly irrational. Anybody with two inches of greymatter can see through your attempts to sell failed systems which only goal is to provide complete power to a few....over everything in a country.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Pro-American interventionists- give ONE example of U.S. intervention in ANY country outside of helping the country against invasion (WW I, WW II, Korea) where the country ended up better.

Can't do it. The animal doesn't exist. Colonialism by America is the same as from the British and other Europeans- the 'colony' suffered.

Panama?
Costa Rica?
Mexico?
Cuba?
Nicaragua?
The Philippines?

Other than the Marshall Plan, America's ventures into globalism have all been failures. America does not have the culture (thankfully) for colonial subjugation. It has the military and the corporations needed to resource-rape but no culture for long term mutual beneficial relationships as an occupier.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Corinthas
Look cuba is poor coz of the US attempt to strangle it.. Strangle it then turn round and say it failed. Thats how the commies and facists managed to make the arachists look bad in spain after all.

BS, Cuba is poor for the asshole communist, and his communists buddies, living still there repressing the people in Cuba. Every freaking attempt by the freaking communists failed.....that's the truth, plain and simple.

Muaddib, I appreciated your earlier example of what Castro has done to intentionally oppress and impovrish Cuba. Castro makes the wrong choice when has has to choose between assetts for his government or food for his people, and that makes him exactly the same as profiteering corporations who I despise so much.
That being said, is America helping or hurting the Cuban people by issolating Cuba without doing anything to oppose Castro? If Castro is evil enough that we should act to bring him down then lets do what we have to do swiftly and decisively and put the horror of it behind us quickly. Our embargo is not making Cuba's poverty any better, that much is certain.
We sau Castro is so evil that we can't do anything to help his nation, even mutually beneficial trade which might slightly relieve the plight of his people. Not even a "cigars for food" program or anything like that? If he's that evil then it was wrong for us to deny air cover to the exiles at Bay of Pigs and it is EXCEPTIONALLY wrong for us to continue to let Castro rule now that his once-powerful Soviet allies lack the ability to project power in support of him.
You're the Cuban-America so let me put the question before you. America on the whole disapproves of Castro. The facts to build support for action against Castro exist. Our Marines could mop the floor with him in short order. Two questions: 1. Should we do it? 2. Will Cubans pick up the ball and run with it, or will it turn into another Iraq?

Originally posted by JoeDoaks
That chinese oil deal better get done pretty quick or the U.S. Marines will be in Caracas.

The oligarchy was run out of Venezueala and America will try to put them back.
[edit on 7-2-2005 by JoeDoaks]

Dang skippy! Somehow a lot of people miss the fact that China and America are basically in a new cold war, and this time it's America who is running around the world starting fires for the other side to put out (although we did a bit of that last time as well I suppose).

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