Did God create Iberia in Genesis 1:9? And where was it?

Oops

That would be Spain and Portugal.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim


If you read genesis from verse 3 and up to verse 8 you should understand that God just created heaven. Heaven is Our expanding universe.

It is stated in verse 7 that God just formed the firmament....and called it heaven in verse 8.

Verse 6 describes that the firmament is in the midst of the waters. In other Words heaven is in the midst of the waters.

a reply to: Sahabi

I revisited some of the posts and threads you refer to in the Illuminati post and got a bit intrigued by the subject and read a few of the posts in the Über-long OP to your elaborate thread called «Wrongly Demonized - Promoters of Goodness & Freedom - Knights Templar, Freemasonry, & Illuminati» in the secret Societies forum. Please take a minute and read my reply to the 15/19 part: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The thread skipped my attention back when you wrote it. I am mighty impressed, though there were so many posts and parts I gave up starring and reading after a while lol. I'll get back to it and read it more thoroughly later. Promise!

And again, I apologise for being an arse earlier. I can become quite rude when I'm stressed. I bet I'll make up for it in the future. It's been a while since I wrote much here at ATS, and I forgot the joys I had reading your threads and insightful writings.

I'm going back to defending my pride here in this thread now. Cheers!

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It was to serve a point to not take it as "gospel"

I see you conveniently ignored my elaboration on what I meant though which is ironic as throw your platitudes about bias around, you cannot use the bible as a historical record

Much like you cannot use Plato's account as a historical record for proof of the existence of Atlantis

Indeed. However, since you bring up Plato and Atlantis, you are aware that in Greek Atlantis simply means the Atlantic Ocean? And it does exist beyond the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar). If you travel a few miles out, the Old World sinks into the ocean and vice versa. I suppose Plato speaks about the American continent and the fact that the Earth is globular and that this knowledge becomes quite obvious when you travel the oceans.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Utnapisjtim


If you read genesis from verse 3 and up to verse 8 you should understand that God just created heaven. Heaven is Our expanding universe.

It is stated in verse 7 that God just formed the firmament....and called it heaven in verse 8.

Verse 6 describes that the firmament is in the midst of the waters. In other Words heaven is in the midst of the waters.

Apart from the oddities of our modern Hebrew lexica and dictionaries and how many words are often defined in extremely weird fashions, you are indeed on to something here. «Elohim», the plural noun translated God in Genesis 1 and onwards, tainted by dogmatic religion as these verses are-- simply means «Forces» as in the Laws of Physics and the Forces of Nature, or the forces or mechanics governing «our expanding Universe» to use your own expression, or rather; self-replicating Universes. If I may....

As for the firmament, that quirky word rests upon Platonic cosmology and precedence among Church translators-- I'd rather translate it Atmosphere, or perhaps rather Ozone-layer, but certainly not Firmament.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

But again it's open to interpretation, just like the bible is so while yes you can find information that may be relevant to history, you cannot use it on its own, you need to find other material which will corroborate with the bible (or whatever source material you are referencing)

You interpret Plato's account as talking about the Atlantic, the pillars being the Gibraltar straights and the Americas being the Island he talks about, other scholars will interpret it differently.

It's also worth mentioning that there is no "original" version of his works, only translations of translations of iterations of translations etc etc

There's the possibility the original material both in the bible and any other manuscript from history that has been translated and iterated isn't anything at all to do with the original material.

It would be for instance me telling a story of me holding a rock, for somebody else to say I was holding a brick, for someone to translate it into me holding a wall and hundreds of years later I'm somehow holding a fortress

a reply to: Discotech

Indeed. To return to Plato though. Plato's round «haven» or «island» is the Earth itself imho.

Genesis is written for both the spiritually educated and uneducated. The uneducated accept the literal meaning of Genesis that Adam ate the apple. Whereas the educated will understand the symbolic interpretation, that Adam (MAN) will seek egotistical desires (Apple) at the cost of spiritual enlightenment.

AC 27. Verse 9. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together to one place, and let the dry (land) appear; and it was so. When it is known that there is both an internal and an external man, and that truths and goods flow in from, or through, the internal man to the external, from the Lord, although it does not so appear, then those truths and goods, or the knowledges of the true and the good in the regenerating man, are stored up in his memory, and are classed among its knowledges (scientifica); for whatsoever is insinuated into the memory of the external man, whether it be natural, or spiritual, or celestial, abides there as memory-knowledge (scientificum), and is brought forth thence by the Lord. These knowledges are the "waters gathered together into one place," and are called "seas," but the external man himself is called the "dry (land)," and presently "earth," as in what follows.

Link

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

As for the firmament, that quirky word rests upon Platonic cosmology and precedence among Church translators-- I'd rather translate it Atmosphere, or perhaps rather Ozone-layer, but certainly not Firmament.

Why not just use it for what it is said to be in Genesis?

In genesis it is mentioned what the firmament is in verse 8.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Heaven:

1. often heavens The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I dont have much to add that can support or detract from your idea, but star and flag for a good read thus far OP.

I will say this, it was common and central to many themes in the older abrahamic writings to refer to "peoples" and be entirely refering to a specific group /nation with particular undertones such as judged by God, clean or unclean, and so on.

The differences expressed could be of geographically removed peoples, or ethnically divergant groups, even perhaps stages of creation, refering to some as belonging to different orders of heaven and earth in terms of mans relation to others.

The difference from the writer to the "nation /people" was expressed in the context of the words chosen to communicate which along with other contextual clues about the subject.

Linguistic drift would affect the acuarcy of a modern retrospective chronology of the evolution of an ancient language.

That is where I leave it to actual academics since its a subject with too many nuances to understand outside of formal training.

Even still, a larger understanging is starting to form outside of trained religious and linguistic circles by regular people.

The availability of information and trustworthy "free" academic resources world wide allows for self education to an ever more deleoped understanding of the world that may have been.

Another thing to consider is that the earths crust is in a constant state of recycling and renewing. What was once an ocean can become a mountain range in time.

Oral tradition eventualy got written down and codified. Who knows how long it was a game of generational telephone before it became a dogmatic tradition in a religious /historical text.

Who knows when the "original" events that inspire an ancient nations myths and lore are born? All we can do is scratch out bits and pieces of a fragmented story thanks to the story tellers.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

And God said, “Let the (two) waters (or the two seas/oceans, «Ha-mayim») under the heavens (or The Dual Name of God, «Ha-shemayim») be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [ESV+my notes] Genesis 1:9

Not true at all in my opinion of course --

Genesis 1:9 And God Said "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered to one place, and let the dry land become visible." It was so.

Quote
On the third day God accomplished three things. First, He completed the earth.
Until this time, all the water remaining under the heavens was mixed with the earth, and all that existed was mud. God now commanded that this water be separated from the mud and collect in one place. He therefore said, "Let the water under the heavens be gathered to one place." When the waters did not know where to go, God indicated that they should form the great ocean.

[There was but one great body of visible earth at this time. The water was the dominating factor and not the earth.]

Contemplating this, one can begin to to imagine God's greatness. The world was originally covered with water. By the power of His command, all the waters gathered in one place, comprising two thirds of the world.
Unquote
Source - Me Am Lo'ez - Torah Anthology 1689-1732 ce --

Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

As you can understand, when the ball of earth and water were separated with a firmament [space of gas or air] the world of mud was still engulfed in water from above. It was an enclosed environment. This water from above is that which fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights in the great flood of Noah. The world was a closed environment for well over 1600 years till the flood of Noah exposed it to the universe and changed those laws of physics of which prevailed for over 1600 years. Up to the time of the flood, the world had only one gathering of water and the vegetation was watered from this eco system as a greenhouse effect.
My opinion --

a reply to: Seede

Yes!

The earth was a hyperbaric chamber with a layer of water vapor as an additional layer of atmosphere.

Life spans decreased because the oxygen levels changed, requiring more energy to oxygenate cells.

Larger creatures couldnt keep up because they needed to eat more. They still expended too much energy to function in a less hospitable environment. Thats why the sons of the "gods" were known for destructive hunger.

Giants died, humans got more feable. There was a massive reduction in species and variety world wide. Except the ocean....that change was slower.

The earth was like a womb. A temperate rain forrest teaming with life.

Then it was hostile....

a reply to: spy66

The word translated «firmament» by mostly medieval translators belonging to the church which still claimed Earth was the centre of a clockwork system of stars moving around the Earth. The Hebrew OT word is Heb. הרקיע «Haraqia» (sounds a lot like Iraq, doesn't it?) and the definition is given in the following verse from where it first occurs; Heb. שמים that is «shem-ayim», the two Names of God, likely the two celestial hemispheres/zodiacs. According to the Bible, the name of God is JHVH a Word you cannot utter, and according to Kabbalah this name has 72 letters

Strong's H7549 «רקיע» misinterpreted as Firmament sounds like «rock ya» and it is interpreted to mean «an extended surface, expanse» according to NAS Exhaustive Concordance. In the time of Enosh they started worshipping it. The connected midrashim explain this verse describes the worshipping of an idol representing the Tetragrammaton, and explains how this worship was a sin, for they worshipped the Name or an object carrying or representing the Name, in place of the God owning it.

In the Song of Moses (Exodus 15) JHVH is described as the name of a Warrior or a Man of War, and in the end of the song the narrator mentions a name, Miriam, or rather Heb. מרים.

Further. Genesis 10:8 reveals the name of the first great warrior, his name was Nimrod, the first king and founder of Babylon. The meaning and etymology of the name Nimrod is supposedly unknown, but some mention Marduk, a god of war from Mesopotamia, closely linked with planet Mars. Could Nimrod have been one and the same as the Roman god of war Mars whose name translates Man? The Hebrew name for Mars is «Ma'adim» or Heb. מאדים, which can translate loosely into «From Steam/Fumes». It is the only planetary name in Hebrew which is plural and has a preposition prefix. Also, it sounds and writes very similar to Ma-Adam, From Man/Adam. Lat. Mars, means Man and he was the Warrior god, a messenger of war, and the Caesar was Mars personified and the patron god of the Caesars.

This may be a stretch, but when everything is put together, there is some kind of consistency. Now I am getting very sleepy, so I need to get some sleep.

a reply to: tadaman

The earth was a hyperbaric chamber with a layer of water vapor as an additional layer of atmosphere. Life spans decreased because the oxygen levels changed, requiring more energy to oxygenate cells. Larger creatures couldnt keep up because they needed to eat more. They still expended too much energy to function in a less hospitable environment. Thats why the sons of the "gods" were known for destructive hunger. Giants died, humans got more feable. There was a massive reduction in species and variety world wide. Except the ocean....that change was slower. The earth was like a womb. A temperate rain forrest teaming with life. Then it was hostile....

I seldom read people that can see this and probably understand it much clearer than I can. I do not understand how some can try to change the entire translation of Torah with utter nonsense.

I have read some years ago that there is a study in progress as to the understanding of time in the antediluvian period also. It is suggested that beings the world was an enclosed environment, a year was counted from one equinox to another equinox instead of our two equinox's of today. If the earth was a closed environment, as supported by Torah, and if a year was counted from one equinox then that could explain some of the longevity of Noah's account. Not all but perhaps some. If Noah were in an open environment and could have observed the universe then he could have eventually seen that it took two equinox's [light to dark] or [dark to light] to equal one year and that would have halved his understanding of time. As it was in a closed environment, Noah could not have known time as we understand time but marked his time from dark to light. One equinox. This could have halved his understanding of time which is still fantastic.

Have you read anything on this? We do not want to derail this thread but I do believe it is a connected issue. Thanks for the input.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Genesis was inspired to Moses who penned it. It is not a record from men but to men from God. More specifically a chosen group of people, the Hebrews/Israel/Jews, who were to carry the word into all the word and serve The Lord God Almighty Jehovah forever. All first five book of the Bible were inspired to Moses it was not written by a bunch of men who didn't see it.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And preserved by him to every Generation

Psalm 12:6, 7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

a reply to: tadaman

And here we were taught it is a thermodynamic system.

The atmosphere is made of different chemicals including water vapor/gas. That water vapor/gas goes high up into the atmosphere where it is bombarded with high intensity UV rays from the Sun which turns the water vapor/gas into Ozone. The Ozone cools and breaks down into Oxygen, Hydrogen peroxide and water. This interacts with Cosmic rays which creates clouds from that high altitude water, oxygen and Hydrogen peroxide and rains upon the earth.

The water once again is evaporated up into the up atmosphere and this process goes on and on.

It is called thermodynamic system, a heating and cooling of vapors/gases that move around the solid surface and interact with its magnetic poles and minerals as the whole system interacts with the sun in a precise orbit. It is such a perfect thermodynamic system that it will support life.

There are other chemicals in the atmosphere that are in vaporous/gas forms. These too interact with the Ozone or lack thereof, the water the Hydrogen Peroxide and oxygen. What we breath is a blend of these vapors/gases it includes, water, Oxygen, Helium, Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, Hydrogen, and more.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

It is.

Everything you stated is fact and in no way detracts from the possibilty that our atmosphere was richer in the past.

You forgot to mention nitrogen. Its actually pretty important for every breath we all take.

Atmospheres are known to have been varied at times. We can argue to what extent based on known evidence but to say a planets atmosphere is entirely stable is not correct.

Hell look at mars. We know at least one other planet lost most of its atmosphere and as a result changed entirely and developed a new atmospheric model.

There is evidence of what I say in experiments that measure growth rates of creatures that are born and spend their entire lives in hyperbaric environments. They grow VERY large. They spend much less energy on a cellular level. The generational effects could be a longer lifespan as cell toxicity is reduced in each succesive generation until organs change and diets /behavior match.

Take that and add it to a more abundant food supply of a less "hungry" environment out to hunt everyone.

There could have been a layer of atmosphere in higher orbit. One that has since dissipated.

Such could have had a greater chemical reaction thanks to natural green house effects to produce greater levels of oxygen and nitrogen as well as keeping earth with a slightly higher atmospheric preasure.

A uniform moderate temperature, calmer seas thanks to stable jet streams of evenly cooled air, slow and constant oceanic currents, and so on.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Once you have got this picture in your mind, it is easy to understand what is happening in Genesis ch1. Nothing to do with Spain or any other peninsula.

Very well explained . Thanks'

a reply to: tadaman

Thanks! Not just for S/F, but for a refreshing and insightful post to lighten the shambles created by halfwits only interested in unrest and bullying.

Oral tradition eventualy got written down and codified. Who knows how long it was a game of generational telephone before it became a dogmatic tradition in a religious /historical text.

That, my good man, is a thing I gladly agree with. The books of the Bible mostly wasn't written down until the Babylonian exile, when the Hebrew language changed quite drastically and the people who came back (only a few) came for nationalistic reasons. I mean, the place was a mess and these returning fools with their transformed and redacted Torahs made enemies of those among the Hebrews who had managed to escape both the Assyrians and the Babylonians and remained in the Land, and the returning Jews gave them a name-- Samaritans, and they were hated industrially and made mamzers of. Even in in the days of Jesus these people were seen as dogs and demonised.

The story of the Good Samaritan is about the Torah, not some wounded man in a ditch, it is the Torah the Jews neglected, while the Good Samaritan treated the wounded Torah with love and friendly neutrality-- curated and restored it, safe-kept it and paid guardians for their efforts in regard to this «Living Torah». Well worth a reread if you haven't heard such a take on this midrash of Jesus about the Samaritan Torah before. You find it in Luke 10:25

Also pay notice to how Jesus was called a Samaritan in John 8:48. Same thing, Jesus used the Samaritan Torah and Nevi'im.

The Jews answered him [Jesus], “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” John 8:48

Since the Romans rejected and persecuted the Christians and their Samaritan library-- and at the same time had trouble with Rabbinical (read: Babylonian or Talmud-based) Judaism, they instead used the Septuagint OT for their refurnished and re-translated NT into Koine Greek and Vulgar Latin (which were even worse than the Babylonian ones). When the Jews and the Romans had managed to destroy most every last copy of the available Christian scriptures, mostly Samaritan Torah and Nevi'im written in contemporary Aramaic, the Romans redacted and translated the gospels and their agent Saul of Tarsos' AKA the 666 Beast's sarcastic epistles-- into Greek and Latin, destroying and dismantled them further.

Jesus and his followers kept their writings, not just using the Aramaic script also used by the Rabbis, but written and memorised entirely in contemporary Aramaic. Hebrew, even in the days of Jesus, was like Olde English for us today, and was only understood adequately by the elite Jewish scribes, priests and politicians almost like how until the Reformation-- all church sermons were performed in Latin, often by priests who were about as good at Latin as I am in Hebrew (and my Hebrew is terrible).