Banning assault weapons again.

You can keep socialized medicine, and social welfare, we prefer to reward people who actually work then to give free handouts to everyone. So you can keep it. Not that we really care.

You should do your homework save you making dumb statments here in NZ we do pay for health care its just we dont go bankrupt if we dont have health insurance. In fact we dont have health insurance as you know it.

But this is America, Americans like guns, and we will keep them. No connection between guns and violence has been truly shown.

If I shoot you with a shot gun no act of violence has been committed?

The problem is the degradation of basic morality. Not gunsd. Removing those will not change the core of the problem: lack of personal responsibility, honor, integrity, and moral stances.

Thats right instead of taking a hard look at what is wrong you blame society. If you or a close family is shot and killed is it still societys fault?

Originally posted by xpert11
I have answered the questions chances are the gun wont help you.
If it is five gang members vs the two of you isnt it reasonable to assume that if they were intend on harming you they could overwhelm you before you could use your gun.

They are going to take a Gun away from me?......LOL

Again I will ask you HOW WOULD BEING UNARMED MADE IT BETTER?

Can your your gun protect you from a sniper ?

How will being UNARMED protect you from a sniper?

Can your your gun protect you from a drive bye ?

How will being UNARMED protect me from a drive by?

Dose your gun stop bullets from hitting you ?

Does being UNARMED stop bullets from hitting you?

The answer to the above questions is NO. Is your gun really offering you that much protection?

Is being UNARMED offering you that much protection?

One more question, if taking a gun away from someone is as easy as you claim, then whats the problem with me having one? If anyone dont like it all they have to do is take it

Originally posted by xpert11
If you or a close family is shot and killed is it still society's fault?

Its NOT society's fault. Its the fault of the criminal that shot them and he should be executed

They are going to take a Gun away from me?......LOL

You think there going to let you shoot them?

Again I will ask you HOW WOULD BEING ARMED MADE IT BETTER?

Can your your gun protect you from a sniper ?
How will being ARMED protect you from a sniper?
Can your your gun protect you from a drive bye ?

How dose being armed help you it dosnt. Being unarmed wont help you but it wont kill you either. You havnt answered the question what use is your gun if one of the above happens to you?

Dose your gun stop bullets from hitting you ?

Does being UNARMED stop bullets from hitting you?

No but carrying a gun wont stop the bullets another case of your gun being useless.

One more question, if taking a gun away from someone is as easy as you claim, then whats the problem with me having one? If anyone dont like it all they have to do is take it

What you and others fail to grasp is that guns give people the means to commit crimes. If guns really prevented crime wouldnt the USA be close to crime free?
If guns were really such a good means of self defence then why is there a need for a police force to protect people?
All the people I know dont carry guns and they arent mugged left right,centre nor is crime rampont.
Even with the population differnce between the USA and NZ by your logic shouldnt NZ be a crimnal haven because we dont carry guns around?

Originally posted by xpert11
How dose being armed help you it dosnt.

I can give you HUNDREDS if not thiousands of links of where you are wrong. Links proving that having a gun stopped someone from getting robbed or worse. Can you show me ONE LINK showing how beingh unarmed STOPPED someone from being raped or killed?

In my own story if I haddent been armed what do you think would have happened? BEING ARMED saved us from being robbed AT THE LEAST

heres a good start

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]

Xpert11's Quote:
Even with the population differnce between the USA and NZ by your logic shouldnt NZ be a crimnal haven because we dont carry guns around?

You seem to know alot about firearms in NZ, from your posts you do not own one, do you know where NZ is on the scale of ownership per capita in the world?
You also forgot that "home invasions" are not only about robbing people, most cases involve beating the victim to death or near death and in a few cases rape. So you your unarmed state you can stand by and watch this happen to your family members, safe in the knowledge that that bad guy didnt steal a gun from you.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by selarius]

In my own story if I haddent been armed what do you think would have happened? BEING ARMED saved us from being robbed AT THE LEAST

heres a good start

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]

You still havnt explained to me why NZ dosnt have a higher crime rate in proportion to the USA.

These stats are a bit old but for the most part support my case.
Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

-- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999

This report shows that as gun ownership has been progressively restricted since 1915, Australia's firearm homicide rate per 100,000 population has declined to almost half its 85-year average.
source
and for this debate check out this possible relevant info.
info

info

I am always weary of statistics even when they support my case because stats are often used to suit someones agenda.
I have already covered the pros/cons of being armed . You scared off the gang members with gun woudnt a knife had the same affect?
You still havnt told me how your gun will protect you from bullets.

Beeeecause...the sight of a firearms being presented is scary. And do you really think a knife is going to scare half a dozen gang members? Seriously?

Originally posted by selarius
Beeeecause...the sight of a firearms being presented is scary. And do you really think a knife is going to scare half a dozen gang members? Seriously?

What time of day did the attack take place?
Were the gang members armed?
Your missing the point there are other ways of defending yourself without guns.
Seriously society dosnt have to revolve around guns.

Are the gang memebers armed?..doesnt matter you are out numbered, and willing to go into a physical confrontation?

Other ways to defend yourself better than a firearm...hmmmmm....nope sorry, cant think of one.

When your life or the life of loved ones is at risk..would you settle for less?

Have you ever fired a gun in your life?
Im not talking about shooting Uncle Johns .22 on his farm when you were seven. or a slug gun at a country fair.
Can yo name any particular model make type caibre of firearm in its entierty?

Attained a New Zealand Arms Licence?

Ever been caught in a situation where your life or loved ones is threatened?

Other ways to defend yourself better than a firearm...hmmmmm....nope sorry, cant think of one.

Ever heard of martial arts for self defense no not the chuck norris version but the likes of Tae kwon do (spelling?) Women can take self defence classes.

When your life or the life of loved ones is at risk..would you settle for less?

You dont need guns to protect your family.

Have you ever fired a gun in your life?
Im not talking about shooting Uncle Johns .22 on his farm when you were seven. or a slug gun at a country fair.
Can yo name any particular model make type caibre of firearm in its entierty?[

We dont have guns at country fairs dont you think the .22 is a gun?
not sure what asking you mean I can name the likes of the M-16

Attained a New Zealand Arms Licence?

Why in the world would I need a firearm?
Im not a farmer,hunter or a member of a pistol club.

Ever been caught in a situation where your life or loved ones is threatened?

We have had some pretty nasty neighbors I have no doubt if they had guns
they would have threatened our lives

Originally posted by xpert11

Other ways to defend yourself better than a firearm...hmmmmm....nope sorry, cant think of one.

Ever heard of martial arts for self defense no not the chuck norris version but the likes of Tae kwon do (spelling?) Women can take self defence classes.

Martial arts is definately noy a more effective way to defect youself agaisnt a determined attacker that could be armed in any manner.

When your life or the life of loved ones is at risk..would you settle for less?

You dont need guns to protect your family.

You are lucky you have had a sheltered life.

Have you ever fired a gun in your life?
Im not talking about shooting Uncle Johns .22 on his farm when you were seven. or a slug gun at a country fair.
Can yo name any particular model make type caibre of firearm in its entierty?[

We dont have guns at country fairs dont you think the .22 is a gun?

not sure what asking you mean I can name the likes of the M-16

We still have air rifles at attractions in NZ. Thre gondola in Rotorua still have air rifles as of Oct 2004. And oh you can Name an M-16 glad to see you watch telly, can you also name its calibre, its action type, have you fired one or a fireamr in the same calibre?

Attained a New Zealand Arms Licence?

Why in the world would I need a firearm?
Im not a farmer,hunter or a member of a pistol club.

You do not have to be any of these to have a firearms.

Ever been caught in a situation where your life or loved ones is threatened?

We have had some pretty nasty neighbors I have no doubt if they had guns
they would have threatened our lives


So people only attack of they have guns?

[edit on 6-2-2005 by selarius]

We still have air rifles at attractions in NZ. Thre gondola in Rotorua still have air rifles as of Oct 2004. And oh you can Name an M-16 glad to see you watch telly, can you also name its calibre, its action type, have you fired one or a fireamr in the same calibre?

Correct me if Im wrong but people dont go home with the air rifles.
I am going to take a guess and say that the M-16 has two settings auotmatic and single shot just a guess.

You do not have to be any of these to have a firearms.

I dont have a need for a firearm. I dont see why I should own one for the sake of it.

So people only attack of they have guns?

No but guns would give them the means to harm us.
For the record I havnt lived a sheltered life it just that guns wouldnt have helped with the crap I encouted .

Originally posted by xpert11

You still haven't explained to me why NZ doesn't have a higher crime rate in proportion to the USA.

These stats are a bit old but for the most part support my case.
Firearm-Related Homicide

Here is some world wide stats on gun ownership and crime. You cant go on just two countries, Switzerland Finland Sweden and Israel all have high rates of gun ownership and low crime rates. Brazil, Mexico and some others have strict gun laws and higher rates of murder then the USA.

heres is a couple of sites that pretty much destroys your arguments

www.ncpa.org...

www.freerepublic.com...

They explain away the myths of gun control country's being safer (some are some aren't) and a lot of other

You scared off the gang members with gun wouldn't a knife had the same affect?
You still haven't told me how your gun will protect you from bullets.

No a knife wouldn't. You claim that a group can easily take my gun away from me but they will run from a knife? Please.

I would be willing to bet that pulling a knife would have made matters WORSE. It would almost guaranteed someone getting hurt.

And your claims of using Martial Arts? I TEACH (Used to Teach really my son does now) Martial Arts, have served in Combat, been a Bounty Hunter, etc. I know how to take care of myself and any teacher that would tell you to go hand to hand against 5 assailants should have his dojo taken away from him.

Hand to Hand is a last ditch effort in ANY life and death scenario. All that crap looks good on TV but in real life it will get you killed. One of the first things I tell my students is there is no better form of self deffense than a gun.

Its Super bowl sunday so I got to go I will talk more about it later.

Read my links though I think they will help you a lot

Almost forgot...How does a gun protect you from bullets? Shot first. A dead man cant shoot you.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]

Amuk you can only Shoot someone if you know there a danger to you. Chances are you wont see the person that kills you.
Poverty is one of the key factors in Crime do guns reduce poverty NO hence guns dont reduce crime.
Info

Although poverty isnt the only reason for crime.
info

Can guns stop greed ? NO guns cant change human nature.

Check this link out
2nd amendment

The fact that Guns reduce crime is a myth.

Originally posted by xpert11
The fact that Guns reduce crime is a myth.

I give you scientific studies and you come back with letters to the editor and someones homepage......ROTFLMAO That WAS the links you gave....LOL

Did you even bother to read the links I sent to you? Some of the results were from GUN CONTROL GROUPS THEMSELVES.

here is a part of their study

Advocates of gun control have paid for several studies, hoping to prove that guns are not useful for self-defense. But every study has shown the opposite: Handguns are used at least as often in repelling crimes as in committing them and are particularly successful as weapons of defense.29 This is one reason why 88 percent of the nation's command-rank police officials disagree with the statement, " The banning of private ownership of firearms will result in fewer crimes from firearms."30

In the 1960s a New York-based antigun group printed signs for its members to post on their homes, "THERE ARE NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE." But the signs came down and the organization withered after a large number of those homes were robbed or burglarized.31 On the other hand, during a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque, N. M., armed citizens patrolled the streets - and felonies dropped sharply.32

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by xpert11
Amuk you can only Shoot someone if you know there a danger to you. Chances are you wont see the person that kills you.

can you support this idea with ANY proof? Other than a letter to the editor or someones homepage......LOL

Show me a study that says all murders are from snipers

And what does poverty or crime either have to do with the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS?

[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]

Let me put it another way if someone shoots you in the back what good is your gun unless you have eyes in the back of your head?
Will a gun save you from a hit & run?
Do you see where I am going with this?
What you and other Americans fail to understand is that guns arent the sole factor in crime.
Explain to me how a gun stops greed and poverty.

Quote from article.
If those 340,000 guns were never sold or owned in the first place, that would be 340,000 less guns in the hands of criminals every year. Part of the reason there are so many guns on the street in the hands of criminals is precisely because so many are sold legally.

You cant disargee with the above statment
There is a complete lack of common sense when dealing with the second amendment.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by xpert11
Let me put it another way if someone shoots you in the back what good is your gun unless you have eyes in the back of your head?

In other words no you cant prove it. DID YOU READ THE LINKS? there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of times a year that a gun protects its owner.

Will a gun save you from a hit & run?

What does this have to do with anything? NOTHING.

Do you see where I am going with this?

you mean besides trying to derail the debate by asking a lot of questions that have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

What you and other Americans fail to understand is that guns arent the sole factor in crime.
Explain to me how a gun stops greed and poverty.

explain to me where we claim they will? We DONT. All we say is that in our country you have a right to bear arms and to protect yourself, no matter whither new Zealand likes it or not....LOL

Originally posted by xpert11
There is a complete lack of common sense when dealing with the second amendment.

I agree it comes from foreigners trying to tell us what to do in OUR country....LOL

It never ceases to amaze me how much other country's are concerned by us being armed a problem most of us don't mind.

heres some more since you cant be bothered to read the links

Several sophisticated statistical models have attempted to measure the net effect of firearms on criminal violence. On balance, they show that there is nothing to be gained from reducing the general level of gun ownership.3


A thorough review of 18 studies of the effects of gun availability among potential victims and criminals found that the overall effect on criminal violence was zero.4
In one study, researchers found no significant differences in total robbery rates between cities where guns were widely available and cities where they were not; in cities with fewer firearms, armed robbers simply used other weapons.5
The best available evidence, based on at least eight national surveys of the general adult population, indicates that guns are used about as often for defensive as for criminal purposes.6
This conclusion is especially true of handguns.

The bottom line is the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution, a guarantee that has been backed by the courts for over 250 years and a guarantee that will remain.



[edit on 6-2-2005 by Amuk]