Phoenicians are responcible for Plato's Atlantis

The answer to all that is Atlantis comes from the Great Sea faring Phoenicians. When the Atlantis legend speaks of the Atlantean Empire's range of power, what is meant is the Phoenician dominance in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean. Remeber one son of Poseidon (city of Sidon the mother land) was named Gadeirus and there so happens to be ancient sea port of Spain called Gades which was in control of the Phoenicians. We can imagine the Phoenicians doing battle with the Greeks of Athens and not the Atlanteans from the far West. The Phoenicians were claiming the splendor of Atlantis in the far west a theirs to the Eastern world because they were the only ones trading with Mesoamerica in that era. The story of Atlantis is partly true in the fact a major section of land sank into the ocean when some of the Phoenician fleet were in port at Atlan in the Far West where the Caribbean Ocean now exists. The famous ancient city of Teotihuacan was built in honor of the Phoenicians who saved a few mesoamericans from drowning in the Caribbean Ocean. Aztec legend speaks of an individual who came from the Eastern continent who had a white complextion with black hair and they named him Quetzalcoatl. He or his people trained these mesoamericans how to built temples and instructed other useful trades to the people. (I am not sure if the ringed water ways with the amazing temple in the center of the island were already there and built by some earlier civilization. Its possible. This would be the true Atlantis that sank.) There were two Phoenician ships in port at Atlan when the island began to sink in the Caribbean. Many were mesoamericans were rescued by these two ships. One ship was named Sun and the other ship was named Moon by the Phoenicians. The place of origin for the Aztecs was said to come from the pyramid of the Sun and the pyramid of the Moon. The new beginning of their civilization. Teotihuacan was built as the New Atlantis for mesoamerica. Quetzalcoatl the Phoenician commander continued to urged the mesoamericans to discontinue human sacrifices which they had been doing down through the ages. After some time Quetzalcoatl left to go back to the Eastern continent and promised to return some day. The Phoenicians never returned again.

I find the subject of Mesoamericans extremely fascinating. Thanks for the post.
I myself have been reading about Teotihuacan. I found the stories of Quetzalcoatl very interesting. However what I have read he was described as a winged God or a feathered serpent. I think its incredible that these locations across the globe are connected this way. You can literally spe:nd all night surfing the web finding these connections.

Originally posted by lostinspace
The answer to all that is Atlantis comes from the Great Sea faring Phoenicians. When the Atlantis legend speaks of the Atlantean Empire's range of power, what is meant is the Phoenician dominance in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.

But the egyptians and greeks knew who the phonecians were. Why would they 'forget' and call them atlantis? Also, the atlanteans had an empire that covered all of europe except athens. Yet there is no evidence of an phonecian empire stretching across europe.

Gadeirus and there so happens to be ancient sea port of Spain called Gades which was in control of the Phoenicians.

I beleive that port was controlled by the carthaginians no? And I thought that the city was called that specifically because of the atlantis idea?

We can imagine the Phoenicians doing battle with the Greeks of Athens and not the Atlanteans from the far West. The Phoenicians were claiming the splendor of Atlantis in the far west a theirs to the Eastern world because they were the only ones trading with Mesoamerica in that era.
Where are the results of this trade? There are no mesoamerican objects in the levant and no phonecian ones in mexco.

The story of Atlantis is partly true in the fact a major section of land sank into the ocean when some of the Phoenician fleet were in port at Atlan in the Far West where the Caribbean Ocean now exists.

What evidence suggests this?

The Phoenicians never returned again.

Why? They continued to exist, maintain fleets, trade, write, everything. Why no phonecian records of this?
Tell you what. IF there was fabric of the sort made in the levant, dyed purple from the stain of the snails that famously had this affect on cloth and that the phonecians were renowned for, in central america, then you really have someting, especially if that dye and fabirc can't be made locally. That'd really be great evidence for it.

Sure, thats demanding, but, heck, look at whats being proposed? It requires demanding evidence.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Tell you what. IF there was fabric of the sort made in the levant, dyed purple from the stain of the snails that famously had this affect on cloth and that the phonecians were renowned for, in central america, then you really have someting, especially if that dye and fabirc can't be made locally. That'd really be great evidence for it.

The Phoenicians (people of the Phoenix) were and remain an enigma. They arrived in the Mediterranean from 'elsewhere unknown' and became a world power. Their purple dye was made in one other place on Earth, later discovered by European invaders: Oaxaca, Mexico. A Precolumbian dye made from a marine mollusk, identical to Phoenician purple. There is your evidence; and there is more, such as ancient Roman artifacts made from Canadian Spruce wood, obtained from Phoenician traders...

I think I'm going to change my sig to "Read the Timaeus".

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Chakotay]

Here's an intersting link I found relating to the Phoenician influence over the Americas and their trade routes.

www.askwhy.co.uk...

Its interesting to note that Quetzalcoatl is always drawn with a cloak with a few crosses (+) layed out upon it. This is in no way related to the cross of Jesus Christ. This cross represents star worship. Check out what I found in Morals and Dogma in Albert Pike's Freemasonry book on page 268.

"The faith of the Phoenicians was an emanation from that ancient worship of the Stars, which in the creed of Zoroaster alone, is connected with a faith in one God. Light and Fire are the most important agents in the Phoenician faith. There is a race of children of the Light. They adored the Heaven with its Lights, deeming it the Supreme God."

(There's more from the book relating to Mason's fascination with the Phoenicians and add to it tomorrow.)

Originally posted by lostinspace
Its interesting to note that Quetzalcoatl is always drawn with a cloak with a few crosses (+) layed out upon it. This is in no way related to the cross of Jesus Christ. This cross represents star worship.

The cross represents several things to us. First, the four directions layed out upon the circle of the Earth. A geographic/navigation concept.

Second, the bow drill we use to start fires makes the sign of the cross.

Crosses often represent stars.

The cross-staff we use to navigate sailing canoes.

But we do not 'worship' stars as such. Quetzalcoatl is associated with Venus; and his origin is said to be heavenly. We do not worship him, either. We simply observe, listen, and learn.

LostinSpace, do you have any info on the protophoenician belief system? Any links? I think you are right- if anyone knew about Atlantis, it would have to be them.

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Chakotay]

The "Great Sea Faring Phoenicians" RULE YO! Shout out to my Peps!
Big Up - REEEEEEESPECT!

we're the phoenicians now. it is the phoenician alphabet that shapes our thought.
the parallels of venus, 'the morning star', jesus and quetzacoatl seem more than coincidence. venus has has a pentagonal orbit, and is the only planet in a retrograde orbit. the planet of love. yeah, baby, let's get shaggadelic.
mercury is the roman name for the egyptian's thoth, or hermes to the greeks, the father of all science. you gotta wonder what's literal, what's metaphorical, and what's metaphysical, yeah?

Morals and Dogma- Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry
by Albert Pike

'Knight of the Sun, or prince adept'
28th Degree

The Phoenicians brought Sun legends to the New World.

The text speaks of many ancient civilizations creating legends in relation to good and evil where the Sun's appearance being life or recreation and its passing into darkness being death and destruction. The passages of interest are spoken here:

"And thus grew into stature and strange proportions the histories of the contests between Typhon and Osiris, Hercules and Juno, the Titans and Jupiter, Ormuzd and Ahriman, the rebellious Angels and the Deity, the Evil Genii and the Good; and the other like fables, found not only in Asia, but in the north of Europe, and even among the Mexicans and Peruvians of the New World; carried thither, in all probability, by those Phoenician voyagers who bore thither civilization and the arts." page 594


"Phoenicians considered Light divine, and thought it a God." page 582

"The Chaldean upon his plains worshipped me [The Sun], and the sea-loving Phoenician. They builded me temples and towers, and burned sacrifices to me upon a thousand alters. Light was divine to them, and they thought me a God." page 582

"Light, Fire, and Flame, with the Phoenicians, were the sons of Kronos. They are the Trinity in the Chaldaean Oracles, the Aor of the Deity, manifested in flame, that issues out of the invisible fire." page 740


Phoenician Nature-God, the principle of Light, called Al

"The world, the ancients believed, was governed by Seven Secondary Causes; and these were the universal forces, known to the Hebrews by the plural name ELOHIM. These forces, analogous and contrary one to the other, produce equilibrium by their contrasts, and regulate the movement of the spheres. The Hebrews called them the Seven great Archangles, and gave them names, each of which, being a combination of another word with AL, the first Phoenician Nature-God, considered as the Principle of Light, represented them as His manifestations." page 727

Phoenician Cosmogony of interest to Masons

"The Phoenician Cosmogony, like all others in Asia, was the Word of God, written in astral characters, by the planetary Divinities, and communicated by the Demi-gods, as a profound mystery, to the brighter intelligences of Humanity, to be propagated by them among men. Their doctrines resembled the Ancient Sabeism, and being the faith of Hiram the King and his namesake the Artist, are of interest to all Masons. With them, the First Principle was half material, half spiritual, a dark air, animated and inpregnated by the spirit; and a disordered chaos, covered with thick darkness. From this came the WORD, and thence creation and generation; and thence a race of men, children of light, who adored Heaven and its Stars as the Supreme Being." page 278


(Is there a way I could get my spelling corrected on the beginning topic line after there is no longer an edit feature shown?)

"Phoenicians are responsible for Plato's Atlantis."
Can someone change 'responcible' to 'responsible'?






[edit on 4-2-2005 by lostinspace]

www.geocities.com...

"A lengendary bird which according to one account lived 500 years, burned itself to ashes on a pyre and rose alive from the ashes to live another period and then burn itself up again"
-Websters Dictionary

"In ancient Egypt the Phoenix represented the Sun."
-MSN Encarta Encyclopedia

Remeber the mythology of the the end of the Sun by the Mesoamerican culture! Now we're coming toward the end of the fifth Sun.

Now here's another intersting bit from Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike on the connection to the Phoenix and a Phoenician legend:

Phoenician Mysteries in honor of death and resurrection of Adonis

"In the Mysteries of Phoenicia, established in honor of Thammuz or Adoni, also the Sun, the spectacle of his death and resurrection was exhibited to the Initiates. As we learn from the Meursius and Plutarch, a figure was exhibited representing the corpse of a young man. Flowers were strewed upon his body, the women mourned for him; a tomb was erected to him. And these feasts, as we learn from Plutarch and Ovid, passed into Greece."
-page 406

It's possible that Quetzalcoatl was a Phoenician who had star symbols on his robe along with a creature representing the Phoenix.

Its also possible Pike has the migration arrow turned the wrong way due to a Eurocentric bias. The Phoenicians may be the descendants of the Mexicans, as stated in the Timaeus. We are talking of worldwide Turkic migrations thousands of years BCE.

What do Indians know of this stuff? Check out John Ross the Mason.

This is a great topic. Much of the information is here but I believe its a bit fuzzy still.

The worship of the sungod started with Nimrod in sumeria.
You will find in the origins myths of cultures worldwide , the same story that is in babylon.

In the bible, you will find these people when Tyre, and Sidon are mentioned.

Its important to draw a relation between the coast of lebanon, carthiage, the coasts of Spain, and even England.

Later we will also discuss how the bible says that the New World and Old were much closer together at one time.

Check out this bible prophecy against Tyre (tyre is in the modern day location of Lebanon, ...and Island that USE to be a few hundred yards out to sea...but then came Alexander the Great...and he took all the ruble from the old city on land that Babylon had destroyed and built a jetty out to the island and crushed it.

sa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is revealed to them.
Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the coast, thou whom the merchants of Sidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.
Isa 23:3 And on great waters the seed of the Shihor, the harvest of the Nile, was her revenue; and she was the mart of nations.
Isa 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Sidon; for the sea hath spoken, the stronghold of the sea, saying, I have not travailed, nor brought forth, neither have I nourished young men, nor brought up virgins.
Isa 23:5 When the report cometh to Egypt, they shall be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.
Isa 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; wail, ye inhabitants of the coast.
Isa 23:7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days, whose feet carried her afar off to sojourn?

The 'ships of tarshish' or Tarsis, a city on the southern coast of Spain at the time, are mentioned many times in the bible.
They started in Lebanon
They were pushed west.
They established cities on Cyprus, at Carthiage, in Spain, They are known in the biible to have traveled to places within a Year and a Half away for a total round trip of 3 years.
One of the products that they traded in was Tin. At that time, the only available tin was mined in England.

Jer 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

Uphaz is an unknown place. Here we see the purple again though.


Check out this one

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.
Eze 27:4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.

Gebal in this is Byblos

Ezekiel goes on with more about Tarsish

Eze 27:25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
Eze 27:26 Thy rowers have brought thee into great waters: the east wind hath broken thee in the midst of the seas.

The great waters and east wind are an indication here. If it had just said sea or seas, it would be debatable, but since the Mediteranian Sea was the birth place and home of Tarshish, the 'great waters' are something different.


From the above we know that these people were always on the outskirts of major civilization. How far they sailed we can only guess at.
The bible offers two ideas for Atlantis

The first being a tale handed down about the preflood world
The second is the new world.
The bible says that the earth wasnt separated until the days of Peleg, after the flood.
The flood of noah was caused when the fountains of the deep burst open.
The dark lines on the map are (according to the Hydroplate Theory) said to be where the single Pangea land mass cracked open. After the flood, that area in the atlantic was the separation of europe africa and the americas.




That aside, lets follow the greatest naval powers of history since Tarshish aka the Pheonecians.
1.) They started in the mideast
2.) Carthiage
3.) Spanish coast
4.) Vikings
5.) Spain
6.) UK
7.) USA

Why take it that far?
There is more bible prophecy

God scattered the Jews using the Roman Empire.
God promised to restore Israel to their country.

Zionism was born late in the 1800's.
The UK Took the Mideast from Turkey during WW1 and the jews started coming back.
At the end of WW2 they started coming back in large numbers.
Remember how we showed Spain and the UK, with the UK being the last, as the possible current day Tarshish?

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of Jehovah is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the peoples; but Jehovah will arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, for the name of Jehovah thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And foreigners shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee.

The UK.
Notice how it also spoke of people flying back to Israel?
Considering when Isaiah was written, I think its pretty cool.

Israel is now a country, but there are two more things to ID the UK and Spain as tarshish.

In the coming Gog-Magog nuclear war, a massive army approaches Israel that is thought to be combined Muslim and Russian.
The people who object to this are Saudi Arabia, the other countries on that peninsula, Tarshish and her young lions.

Eze 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take the spoil? hast thou assembled thy company to take the prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take great spoil?

You should go check this out, but the Royal symbol of the Spanish and English Monarchy is the Lion.
Spain and England are basically the fathers of the new world. Brazil being Portugese.
Who would possibly object to a large Russian army in the mideast?

That aside, I believe that there were different migrations of people to the new world at different times. DNA testing only recently confirmed a second migration from Indonesia to the americas.

Hope this provided some clues to help fill out the whole picture

www.seafriends.org.nz...

[edit on 5-2-2005 by jake1997]

Quote: "Notice how it also spoke of people flying back to Israel?
Considering when Isaiah was written I think its pretty cool."

Yeah Zionism & other forms of Extremism are Real Cool & "God" is the
BEST Real Estate Agent! What Planet are you from? I wonder why the Moslems Hate us?

Originally posted by Chakotay
The Phoenicians (people of the Phoenix)

I beleive that the name infact refered to a colour, not 'the phoenix'.

www.manandmollusc.net...

Excellent, but, the problem is that they have access to the mollusc, which means its a matter of native prodcution. I made sure to not that. However, I would say that this sits very nicely in a 'pro' column. Its especially nice to see that a reasonable prediction is met here. But, what I am looking for is evidence of trade. I'll have to take at look at that page.

In Oaxaca, the Mixtec still search the seashore for the pretty Wide-mouthed Purpura shell, squeeze some of their juices onto yarns and return the shell to its home, to be used again the following season. These same dyes were used as early as 400 B.C.

Right here is a big problem, especially to support a mexico origin for the phonecians.

Also, it looks like from that page that the phonecians were using

Hexaplex trunclulus for their dye,(left) the romans used Murex brandaris (right), and the central americans used the awesomely alliterative Purpura patula pansa

So the problem is distinguishing between cultures that produced something similar because of a connection as opposed to similaritys that result from similar conditions (here having a purple staining mollusc in both regions)

This page gets into the origins of the phonecians, as does this page. I don't think that there's very much evidence to support the idea that they orignated in the americas and settled the mediteranean from west to east, as opposed to east to west.

lostinspace
www.askwhy.co.uk...

Intruiging, they make a good case for something like tobaccoo existing in the old world and going extinct before long. They also note that members of the same group of plants that new world coc aine comes from exist in africa, but do not produce coc aine. Perhaps, similarly, a variety of coc aine producing coca plant existed in these times and went extinct.

interestingly, they note that nicotine is found in egyptianand european mummies, including german and austrian mummies. However, these mummies do not have coc aine in them (or at least the article makes no note of it). I do have to wonder as to why they'd be trading tobacco but not coc aine in that part of the world. Also, there is no evidence of extensive trade between egypt and the germans, and I suspect that there is evidence of trade between phonecians and germans, at a distance.

lostinspace
There's more from the book relating to Mason's fascination with the Phoenicians

Apparently the freemasons, in some of their books, maintain that the Craft started with the Phonecians, becuase they helped to build the great jewish temple. I'm not sure how seriously one wants to take that, especially considering that the masons started as a medeval (at oldest) 'trade union' group.

lostinspace
Its interesting to note that Quetzalcoatl is always drawn with a cloak with a few crosses

The cross is such simple shape tho, does it require that one culture introduce it to another?

. The Phoenicians may be the descendants of the Mexicans, as stated in the Timaeus.

Can you quote the portion that you see as stating that?

We are talking of worldwide Turkic migrations thousands of years BCE.

Why turks?

Originally posted by Nygdan

. The Phoenicians may be the descendants of the Mexicans, as stated in the Timaeus.

Can you quote the portion that you see as stating that?

We are talking of worldwide Turkic migrations thousands of years BCE.

Why turks?

The Timaeus speaks of a Pan American Empire (my interpretation):

For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind.

Turkic, not Turks. A study of the ancient migrations of the prehistoric (and pre-Islamic) Turkic Peoples will take you from Turkey on the Mediterranean (one of the landfalls of the Atlanteans?) to Russia, China- and (back) to the Americas (by way of Siberia and Alaska). The original language is related to Sumerian, and the original form of worship is Shamanism. As you can see from a map of the Levant, Tyre and Sidon (the Phoenician cities of Lebanon) are contiguous with Ottoman Turkey. The American Founders knew of this hypothetical connection; they named the large fowl of the Americas the Turkey; the Cherokees (Tch'ur'ki) who held the bird in high esteem like to wear one of its feathers on their Turkish-style Turbans.

By the way, great pics of the shells. I could not find them before. They look like Turbans!

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Turkic, not Turks.

Yes, I am aware of the difference, but Turkic is a language group anyway. I tend to use 'turks' to mean an ethnicity and 'turkic' as a linguistic/cultural thing, tho I suppose by that rationale I was wrong anyway, since the modern Turks are not the same ethnicity as the orginal participants in the expansion of the Turkmen.

The original language is related to Sumerian, and the original form of worship is Shamanism.

What information suggests either of those? I am not particularly skeptical that the central asian turkic peoples practiced something like shamanism, tho in my ignorance I know of no reports on the status of the turkic peoples religion. However, on the language, I'd have to remain very skeptical on it being related to Sumerian, which, at best estimates, is thought to be related to the elamo-dravidic languages, but is really something of a mystery.

As you can see from a map of the Levant, Tyre and Sidon (the Phoenician cities of Lebanon) are contiguous with Ottoman Turkey.

But this is before the turkic migration into that part of the world.

By the way, great pics of the shells. I could not find them before. They look like Turbans!

Ha, yes I suppose they do!

If I remember correctly (and I may or may not) the series of events surrounding this story goes something like this:

1. Greek city states engage in a series of fratricidal wars which became the basis for the Illiad and probably explain the "sea people" who were laying waste to various parts of the Mediterranean at that time. We don't really know who the Sea People were, but they were probably Greek. They could have been a defeated army turned raiders or Greek coalition forces attempting to blackmail other powers into joining their war effort.

2. After the fall of Troy (I remember reading a date, but I've forgotten it) Phoenecian power begins to grow very rapidly. Although they did not consolidate their rule into an empire per se, their cities and colonies are found in all of the geographic area Plato says they controlled. Because they spread after the fall of Troy, which controlled the Bosphorus, I tend to believe the theory that Phoenecians came from the Black Sea region.

3. The Phoenecian city-state of Tyre founded the colony Gadir in what is now Spain. This was a little before Carthage's time. If I remember correctly Carthage was founded by the Phoenecians and became a power in its own right later. They may have held sway over Gadir later, I'm not sure. Several hundred years later, Plato made a mistake about who founded Gadir. Actually, he may not have made a mistake so much as he just made part of his story up out of thin air.

4. Because people had citizenship to their city-state and not to a nation, a city-state or colony named Atlantis or something similiar caused some Phoenecians to be called Atlanteans. Atlantis may have really sank, or it may have been destroyed and forgotten in the wars. It's not the only city that disappeared during the "sea people" wars either.


Everything else lostinspace said is new to me. I'll be reserving judgement, and as you have said I will be greatly impressed if that fabric/dye evidence is confirmed.

Altaic Languages, family of 65 languages spoken by about 167 million people in around 23 different countries, in a vast area of Eurasia extending from Turkey in the west to the Sea of Okhotsk in the east. It consists of three main subfamilies or groups: Turkic (by far the largest), Mongolic, and Tungus.

This sea is the area of the Pacific north of Japan.
The Mongolic and Tungus are decendant of the Turkic
Certain Altaic-speaking peoples are important historically, for example, the nomadic Huns and Mongols, who invaded Europe between the 4th and 13th centuries ad, and the Manchus of the Qing dynasty who ruled China from 1644 to 1912. Turkish has been written with various scripts since the 8th century; the Mongolian script was in use by the 12th century.

Sumerian Religion
www.compmore.net...

Check out that page.

Originally posted by Nygdan

The original language is related to Sumerian, and the original form of worship is Shamanism.

What information suggests either of those?

some answers on linguistics here:

Comparisons to the ancient Sumerian language (which they label as Ural-Altaic) to modern Turkic languages show common vocabulary. Based on these comparisons it is claimed that the Sumerians were the most ancient documented Turkic people, that they originated from east of the Caspian Sea but established a civilization in Mesopotamia (from Wikipedia).

and Shamanism here:

Some Turkic people (particularly in the Russian autonomic regions and republics of Altai, Hakas, and Tiva) are largely shamanists. Shamanism was the predominent religion of the different Turkic branches prior to the 8th century, when the majority accepted Islam (from Wikipedia).

Rather off topic, but most American Indians I know make rotten slaves to God or anyone else- Islam is currently trying to convert Natives using the Turkish argument, to which Cherokee Elders reply: 'We are the Originals, (Shamanists) and Islamics are upstarts that should learn proper humility'. We speak of 'Freedom and God', not just 'God'. We may be one People, but it took so many thousands of years to settle around the world and across oceans that today, we hardly know each other. We maintain close ties with Shamanic tribes in Siberia, who often come to intertribal pow-wows in the US. I hope in the future the Islamists can rediscover their ancient roots, abandon aggressive warfare, and help create a future of peace for all races of humankind.


[edit on 5-2-2005 by Chakotay]