Miss USA: Not a feminist, also healthcare is a privilege.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Any form of "collective" support for any industry can or could be private (medical insurance) or public (medicaid).

This means that the "collective" (socialized if you must) is already in existence, it is just a matter of who is collecting the premiums. Either a private company or the Govt.

a reply to: SaturnFX

So...you agree with me?

You're sending me mixed signals.

Maybe... you'll have to tell me... do you think that we have a right -- not a privilege, but an absolute inalienable natural right endowed by our Creator -- to nurture, nurse and sustain our lives? If so, then yes, we agree that healthcare is a right.

Which, of course, is an entirely different matter than having the "right" to force others to provide that care -- which no one has.

originally posted by: slider1982
Wow them goal posts are moving,

I guess a majority white liberal crowd are now attacking a Black women, regressive left rhetoric knows no bounds..

RA

Attacking what someone says doesn't mean you are attacking the person. People are NOT what they say or do. You can criticize someone's behavior hoping it will change and still love and respect them as human being.

Why is that the right wingers think what a person says IS the person? People are not the words they speak.

originally posted by: Monger
a reply to: SaturnFX

So a pretty lady said something, and that reinforces your political views?

She is a scientist. dont be sexist

It's like T_D daily reminder posts about how good looking Fatty Trump's daughter is.

Fat shaming?

Is a pretty face enough to keep people voting against their own self interest?

You know women can be scientists, right?

RE forcing a doctor to work for you.. do you think that doctors work for free under universal health care? I live in a tiny community in rural Canada and my doctor drives a brand new Mercedes.

How do they get paid?

Do you think the crews that patch and resurface your highways are forced to work for you too? Would you be OK if you were charged every time you got onto any paved road?

We pay taxes for roadworks.

now stop being a feckless partisan and start discussing the thread topic.

is healthcare, or other privately owned service, a right or a privilege?
what is the difference in your mind?
give me principles, not products

btw, I didn't vote for Trump and consider myself center left

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: SaturnFX

Coastguard, Fire and rescue services are not a right either but nobody seems to complain about them being provided collectively by tax dollars.

Yes
so you are suggesting hospitals become government entities?

Just for 10 years of so to clean out the corruption. Kind of like what the government did with GM.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: SaturnFX

So...you agree with me?

You're sending me mixed signals.

Maybe... you'll have to tell me... do you think that we have a right -- not a privilege, but an absolute inalienable natural right endowed by our Creator -- to nurture, nurse and sustain our lives? If so, then yes, we agree that healthcare is a right.

Which, of course, is an entirely different matter than having the "right" to force others to provide that care -- which no one has.

I have the right to do whatever I want with my body (except suicide..never quite understood that.)
That isn't what is being discussed here in terms of healthcare. the subject is going to a hospital or doctor...

a reply to: SaturnFX

I can tell you from experience that in Canada, if a family doctor/GP decides that they can't work with somebody they can refuse to see them.

I know this because a close relative of mine went off on a family doctor when told their oxy prescription was being cut back (this person has cancer and became addicted after a couple of major surgeries). The poor doctor was extremely upset about the while situation, it's simply government policy that the prescriptions are getting cut due to the addiction epidemic.

The doctor decided she couldn't see this person anymore so they see a different doctor now. No doctor has a gun to their head.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: SaturnFX

Coastguard, Fire and rescue services are not a right either but nobody seems to complain about them being provided collectively by tax dollars.

Yes
so you are suggesting hospitals become government entities?

Just for 10 years of so to clean out the corruption. Kind of like what the government did with GM.

Once government has a hold of something, they tend to have a very hard time letting go.
Consider also the rampant corruption of government. the $2000 surgery will end up being a 20k surgery taken from the neverending pool of taxes and used in the most moronic way possible.

We will need a full overhaul of government before this happens....else the waste will become astronomical.
With hospitals being private, and competitive against others, capitalism will (should) drive down cost and increase quality to get the most clients

originally posted by: Monger
a reply to: SaturnFX

I can tell you from experience that in Canada, if a family doctor/GP decides that they can't work with somebody they can refuse to see them.

I know this because a close relative of mine went off on a family doctor when told their oxy prescription was being cut back (this person has cancer and became addicted after a couple of major surgeries). The poor doctor was extremely upset about the while situation, it's simply government policy that the prescriptions are getting cut due to the addiction epidemic.

The doctor decided she couldn't see this person anymore so they see a different doctor now. No doctor has a gun to their head.

You didn't answer the question. you just gave a short story about someone switching doctors.

originally posted by: amazing
I would say Healthcare is a right, especially if you pay Taxes, Insurance and work full time. I do all three. I pay taxes every year for decades, I've paid Health Insurance for decades, I've worked full time for decades.

We should be able to afford Healthcare in that case. However, when Cancer hit our family, even with insurance it was a strain to pay and we went without certain things for a while. Without Insurance we would have gone banktrupt. That's the discussion we need to be having.

Second scenario.

You got laid off and your mother's retired in her 70's. She has a heart attack. You call 911 but you don't have any money, bad credit, no job and no collateral. If Healthcare is a privilege, then your mother should be left to die. If it's a right, they come, perform CPR and take her to the Hospital for life saving. Yes, no?

Yes, it's a right. It should not be for-profit or at least not for unlimited for-profit. I don't like the idea of for-profit prison's either. Or for-profit utilities. Anything you can still get all the customers in a region without advertising has to have special rules. Laissez faire capitalism doesn't work if you don't have competition to wring out inefficiencies in CEO pay or bad service from optimizing profits. Without market forces to ensure quality of service and pricing Laissez faire capitalism is a nightmare. Please, I want to hear someone argue in support of 20% increases on average in healthcare premiums over the last 30 years. Every five years it doubles in price. Every year consumers have to reduce coverages to even afford. So the price keeps going up, the quality of service keeps going down. What conclusions can you draw about the nature of our laissez faire capitalism? How can you support such a system?

a reply to: SaturnFX

Got news for you, the waste is already there. There is no limit to what is charged. If your insurance won't cover it you are on the hook, and this is happening more and more.

And don't anyone dare look outside the US, where we are #1 in on and only one thing-cost.

We are 30th in medical outcomes-keep in mind Columbia has better medical outcomes than the US, at a much better cost.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I disagree with your opinion. The US government does a fine job with defense spending. Are you saying we need to privatize defense?

I think we all agree corrupt bureaucracy whether it public or private is a a problem. I really don't care what the tactic is used in addressing the inefficiencies. I would support a government take over of healthcare insurance, keep the hospitals private if it would clean out the private corruption. And then make the public schools private if it made the schools better. The tactic doesn't matter. What does matter is how do you clean up the corruption.

What is your solution to the healthcare crisis?

1. There is no problem, do nothing
2. There is a problem, solve it by doing ?????
3. There is a problem but there's nothing we can do about it

Every time I discuss with people who say government is the problem never have any solutions.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Yes, it's a right. It should not be for-profit or at least not for unlimited for-profit. I don't like the idea of for-profit prison's either. Or for-profit utilities. Anything you can still get all the customers in a region without advertising has to have special rules. Laissez faire capitalism doesn't work if you don't have competition to wring out inefficiencies in CEO pay or bad service from optimizing profits. Without market forces to ensure quality of service and pricing Laissez faire capitalism is a nightmare. Please, I want to hear someone argue in support of 20% increases on average in healthcare premiums over the last 30 years. Every five years it doubles in price. Every year consumers have to reduce coverages to even afford. So the price keeps going up, the quality of service keeps going down. What conclusions can you draw about the nature of our laissez faire capitalism? How can you support such a system?

This is your problem
You have no principled stance, and that makes for odd bedfellows with subjects

hospitals = privately run overall (discluding fed hospitals, VAs, etc).
Effect: This will enforce quality and comfort over trying to delist diseases to save $

prisons = government run because you broke government crimes. This is tax supported and agreed, no private for profit prisons. this will encourage rehabilitation over more laws for more prisoners.

Utilities = This is a good subject to discuss!!! We could have a full thread on this because this is ultimately a monopoly enforced by government.

As far as healthcare goes again
Its good to look at the best healthcare on earth to take note.
They all tend to do a half/half approach. they got universal healthcare in line with private healthcare. the private being of course better, but this also has the effect of having private come down in cost and up in quality so people choose private over universal in a competition
Here I would certainly be open to ideas on this hybrid system. It isn't a right..but it does seem the right (and most beneficial) method to try.

originally posted by: seasonal
keep in mind Columbia has better medical outcomes than the US, at a much better cost.

Yes, because they have both a government and a private choice that keeps both in check for cost and creates major competition.
We should take note

originally posted by: dfnj2015
2. There is a problem, solve it by doing ?????

I choose that one
fill in the ????? with the answers from my previous 2 posts

I'm in love and of course the left hates her. She's an actual scientist and beautiful, not a blue haired troll blogging about how more women should be scientists. Who woulda thought? All you gotta do is actually be smart and enroll in STEM classes, it's crazy that she was able to defeat the patriarchy and become a nuclear scientist. She's also black and off the Democrat thought plantation, the greatest offense possible. Funny how they only stand up for minority groups as a monolith and hate any member that thinks independently, not identifying as their over arching viewpoint of said group.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I am just happy you did not call me a socialist communist. I don't care what tactic we use to resolve the problem. I just think there's something going on here. I believe the CEOs who own the hospital also own the healthcare insurance company. I think this type of collusion leads to Pentagon style toilet seat pricing. My family policy was up to $2300 per month. I just changed policies and now I am paying $1600 per month. But now I am responsible for more out of pocket costs. So the quality of my service went down. I am so sick of healthcare costs. Once healthcare costs more than my mortgage I'm done. What's the point of working at this point?????

a reply to: PepeTalk

Hating her position on a political issue doesn't mean the "left hates her". People are NOT the words that come out of their mouth. You can criticize what someone says or their behavior and still love and respect them.

Why do you think people ARE what they say? What weird delusional world do you live in????

Healthcare is not a right.

You have lots of Rights.

But, forcing a doctor to work for less than market value.

Sorry...

a reply to: SaturnFX

The thing is lobbyists force the politicians to pass laws creating cartels and monopolies in exchange for campaign financing. Why can't we change one line in Medicare law to allow people under 65 to buy it? Because the insurance companies do not want competition.

We need some solution. I'm not sure what it is but what we have now is criminal.