"Nationalism Is The Anti-dote to Tribal Racism" - Rebel Media

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Again pls define what a tribalistic urge is.


Is it refusing to sit down on the same sofa as someone from a different tribe?

That's not an urge. That an insecurity.

We are also genetically wired to fear snakes and lions...

That doesn't mean we can't transcend our primitive wiring.[

a reply to: 0racle

It's primal. It's an evolutionary trait. And this is well known.

en.wikipedia.org...
more

originally posted by: 0racle


That doesn't mean we can't transcend our primitive wiring.[

Tell that to an arachnophobe.

originally posted by: 0racle

No matter how many scientific studies you cite to back up your claims about group behavior and group psychology, I know the one thing true thing that unites people, truly, is our shared HUMANITY.

Coobaiyah by the campfire sounds nice, until Hutu's come running out of the brush wielding machetes.

That's just not how the world works.

There's people who get into brawls over which rapper is better.

This "urge" you cant seem to fathom, its not unlike the sex drive (which is stronger in males, and no wonder as the tribal urge is historically stronger in men the warriors of the tribe).

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

People who come running out of the bush who lack humanity...
sure...

im not denying people lack a feeling for their own humanity. And im not denying there could be some genetic basis for tribalism.

But I believe our evolution is moving towards us transcending those tribalistic boundaries as many civilised human beings do everyday in this globalized world.. .and have done for thousands of years.. I am also aware that there is such a thing as devolution too, and indeed whenever we engage and feed those tribalistic tendencies, we become more tribal and more devolved.

I don't define tribalism as a human tendency because I don't believe it represents our current evolution or evolutionary direction. The fact that we see it in human society is a symptom of devolution.

originally posted by: 0racle

But I believe our evolution is moving towards us transcending those tribalistic boundaries as many civilised human beings do everyday in this globalized world.. .and have done for thousands of years.. I am also aware that there is such a thing as devolution too, and indeed whenever we engage and feed those tribalistic tendencies, we become more tribal and more devolved.

I don't define tribalism as a human tendency because I don't believe it represents our current evolution or evolutionary direction. The fact that we see it in human society is a symptom of devolution.

Then explain why the world is more tribalistic than ever.

We really haven't evolved at all in the modern era.

It's innate. It's part of who we are. And the surest way to ensure it exceeds is to be in total ignorance to / denial about the power it holds over "humanity".

How can this "evolutionary direction" as you're romanticizing represent "humanity" when this "devolution" is the increasing trend?

All that has "evolved" the past couple centuries is our technology, ever increasingly so, and its our very technology now (social media in particular, foreshadowed by mass media) that's is causing this ever increasing "devolution".

Don't get me wrong, I loathe tribalism, I'm an exceedingly odd and rare one who is naturally anti-tribalist (and therefore an outcast my whole life). But as an outsider I have a unique ability to see through it, and am armed with the science to break it all down. You might appreciate some of my many works that speak to this.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

How can this "evolutionary direction" as you're romanticizing represent "humanity" when this "devolution" is the increasing trend?

Because its not. It's not the increasing trend. Only where it has manifested violent or serious conflict (political, religious, ethnic, nationalist) has it grown stronger, but history shows many of these conflicts result in lasting peace and the breakdown of tribal tensions.

More than ever we are cooperating and making progress towards a globally connected society. It's now almost abnormal in the developed world to not speak more than one language. And people who speak multiple languages are far more common than they ever were before. This and many other indicators that you can look at in commerce, media, politics, sports, charity, science, education etc, show we are much less tribal than we have ever been thank to modern technology.

It makes some people dumber, but on the whole it is helping humanity evolve.

a reply to: 0racle

No offense, but you're just out of your depth on this issue.

Today we're seeing what happens when humans get ultra-connected via social media. And so far the tribalist results have been a Hyper-Tribalist disaster.

Dont believe me? Go check out my thread history the past year. The stuff related to the post-Obama era pretty much all reflect this Social Media Era. The stuff related to (and a great deal of the hundreds of threads from before) the pre-Obama era is all the tribalist product of the Mass Media Era.

Look at history; start with mass media: The Nazi's were the originals to heavily implement radio, and then film, into pushing their political propaganda. And look what happened. That whole outcome, that was the dawn of the Mass Media Era (which the world of mass media across the whole world loves to not acknowledge).

Soon thereafter, TV became the mass media format of total ubiquitous consumption. And how well did that fare our "evolution"??? Tribalism so deeply entrenched in the mass psyche that consumerism came to become a complex set of tribalist mania. And then there's the partisansnip angles!

And that was the stage pre-Obama (pre-Social Media Era).

Well what about the low-tech sectors of the human species? Any less tribalism to be found there? Shall we discuss Africa? How about Asia? The Middle East?

And now in the "future" parts of the world, in this Social Media Era, we have the liberals running amok as the most hardcore tribalist hordes in human history! And whats this, they're bringing about a whole new era of neo-fascism in their efforts (which supposedly they're against). And this is just scratching the surface. Look over in Russia, the semi-high tech world, serious neo-fascist brigades running amok there now (despite a lack of liberals to instigate them). Europe? Lets not even go there. How about the Middle East in this era? With cell phones now we have Sharia Law on the march across the planet!

Things looking any better in Africa on the tribalist front these days???

We simply are not evolving (although I wont disagree about the notion we're devolving [check that link]), only our technology is. And with it the tribalist reality of our species is being hyper amplified, our tribalist nature is dripping and splattering across the collective temporal lobes of the planet right now. And if you want to change it you'll first have to get square with these facts.

Is it a possible to have a single unified humanity without having a single human identity? Is is possible to have a unified single human identity without having a unified human identity, without having a single unified human nation? It it possible to have a single unified human nation, with one identity, without having a single world government?

originally posted by: olaru12

At least on ATS. But what Iv'e noticed is that people label themselves, adopt a BS cyber persona

LOL!! It is how they see themselves .... placid ... aggressive.... avenger etc.

And defend it like it actually has meaning.

It does to them ......

These forum styled fantasies turns people in to monsters.

Nothing will unite us....

Haven't you heard that **Birds of a feather flock together**

Personally I don't want to be united with ALL in sundry .... I prefer to

choose the company I keep.

a reply to: eletheia
I'd be careful with that if I were you friend. I have been forcibly convinced that wanting choose who you keep company with means you are non-inclusive/exclusive/racist/sexist/islamaphobic/homophobic/non-multicultural/vibrancy denying/enrichment hating/Nazi/facist/miysogynist/deplorable Trump supporter/.....continue with other empty parroting terms as you wish.

originally posted by: 0racle

Okay I finally watched the video.

Interesting!

She's not actually wrong, or right. Or rather not wholly right or wrong.

The bulk of what she's saying, could be argued in favor of "Globalism", too.

Note that I see "Globalism" as just an alternative to "nationalism", and I find it most perplexing this liberal idea that Nationalism is inherently "racist" to them, but Globalism is somehow supposedly not any way shape or form the same sort of mass scale tribalist construct,

She does have a point, this argument that 'look, people of different races come together under the banner of nationalism'.

You'd say that isn't so? I doubt it. And yeah nationalism IS tribalism.

This has me thinking, look at what Globalism has done in every society I've noted that pushes it: it creates infighting within each nation.

So it seems she is on to something, although Nationalism can too have its own pitfalls (which I've written about at length over the years).

I think for a cohesion in national society (which is the way of the world and it ensures diversity), nationalism is the better route.

But it also does fall flat in helping nations get along, in practice so far (without a doubt), as even these "tolerant" "Globalist" liberals are all too ready to go to war with say Russia (or anyone else inside or outside their nation that opposes them).

But the tribalist urge its as real as the sex drive: you like videos go on youtube and look up "hooliganism"!!!!!!

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
a reply to: eletheia
I'd be careful with that if I were you friend. I have been forcibly convinced that wanting choose who you keep company with means you are non-inclusive/exclusive/racist/sexist/islamaphobic/homophobic/non-multicultural/vibrancy denying/enrichment hating/Nazi/facist/miysogynist/deplorable Trump supporter/.....continue with other empty parroting terms as you wish.

Thing about that is *I don't really give a dam.*

*Sticks and stones*......and all that.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Yes. Human identity. The capacity to feel sympathy and love for other human beings inspite of all of those differences is enough. We are all human and humans we need to stop overlooking that.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Yeah whatever. Out of my depth? The reality you passively choose to allow to drip through your temporal lobes via your INDIRECT experience of the world because of you MSM addiction is not the reality on the ground.

The reality that FLOWS through peoples temporal lobes who live healthy lives, and who actively choose to AVOID the poison you and so many senseless other people keep consuming, in drips, is one of common sense, a shared experience of flow of connection beyond FAKE news and FAKE politics and FAKE man made religious identities, cults... because they are not brainwashed by drips, but by the flow of the reality as they perceive it from their CORE... with an understanding from DIRECT EXPERIENCE that transcends the bullshiit you think you know.

A circus makes the most noise, but it's not the whole town... and the whole town is not dead just because it is not seen to under the illumination of circus lights.

If you are serious about how much you think you know. You should know this. How much you actually know about humanity, today, is less than a single page worth of information, from a single book, in an entire library worth unwritten text. And you probably know less than that.

a reply to: 0racle

What the hell are you talking about?!?

LOL!

Dude I havent had TV in about 15 years.

You really ought to browse some of my work before pushing on any further, you clearly have no clue what tree you're barking up with entirely the wrong racket.

OR, you can actually counter all my arguments herein!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with that. A shame really. If you even had a clue who you're dealing with, how my decade+ of work is probably what you've been looking for (most people just screech when ever hearing chatter addressing this kind of material).

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Exactly, what the hell am I talking about?

You dont have the ability to comprehend.

Because youre so arrogant you falsely assume I am looking for something I haven't already found, and that what you have written in the past is what I have been looking for.


This is a theoretical subject matter for which there are no concrete truths, and by speculating how little I know about it you have demonstrated that your whole approach to this subject is fundamentally flawed. That completely puts me off wanting to read anything you have previously written, no matter how good or enlightened you believe yourself to be.

You sir are a fraud.

I don't think there's much point in imagining a world without tribalism. It simply isn't going to happen for anything more than a short period of time to deal with a specific issue.

- I'd say your immediate family is the smallest form of tribalism. But when I go to my parents house to watch a film, there are only four of us and we can't decide what to watch. Within the smallest, and arguably strongest form of tribalism we can't as humans with our own personalities agree on everything.

- I (UK) vote conservative. That's another form of tribalism, grouping myself with other conservative voters. My brother leans more towards Labour. But now what, someone within my 'tribe' on one issue is outside of it on another.

- But okay we live in the same town, lets take it to that level. But I have friends and family outside of the town. So we'll take it to my local county.

- I have friends outside of that too. Better take it to the country of England. But my family is from Scotland and I have had friends in Northern Ireland, lets go to the UK then. National pride and all that.

- But I've been friends with people across the globe, so I guess that makes me non tribalistic...does it? No of course not because I'll still side with my friends/nation/country/area/family over others.

My area wants to install a new shopping centre, a nearby area with an existing shopping centre is against this because they think they may lose customers from my area. My immediate response - "Well, tough, this benefits my area so I think it should happen." Small scale tribalism is part of our everyday lives whether we realise it or not, and other than it's potential outcome is no different to 'My country is better than your country' type remarks.


As to the original post, yes Nationalism could help fight racism in a sense. If you can focus on that aspect of tribalism and bring people together, it's a stepping stone for saying "Hey, you get on with different races/religions because they're British...maybe that means you should treat those people the same no matter where they come from."

(This has all been typed at work, secretly, apologies if it rambles)

Edit - after reading the post below, I want to clarify I mean a 'soft' form of nationalism. Being proud of your country without thinking it is some infallible thing that does no wrong in the world.

a reply to: 0racle

With respect, NO.

Being proud of your country for the good things it does, while being humble enough to make oneself aware of the evils it contains and exports, and determined by that awareness and pride to prevent those ills from continuing, is noble, but it is not called Nationalism. Nationalism is mindless, exceptionalist nonsense. An example. I am proud to be British, and love my country very, very much. I also, because I am not a Nationalist, accept and understand that my country has been and is still responsible for exporting death and misery around the world, selling guns to evil people all over the Earth, stealing liberties from its citizens, and a whole host of other low down, shady things besides. I detest these things, and the people who propagate them, and would like to see the issues and the people originating them ended.

Nationalism however, sticks its fingers in its ears, blames a nations ills on external forces, and refuses to pull the log out of its eye on EVERY occasion, never accepting that the nation itself has to take responsibility for its failures. That is not a cure for anything. It is a disease.

originally posted by: 0racle
a reply to: CulturalResilience

Yes. Human identity. The capacity to feel sympathy and love for other human beings inspite of all of those differences is enough. We are all human and humans we need to stop overlooking that.

That is an expression of the sentiment. My questions concern the practical, real world mechanism that would actually make the sentiment a reality.