Lucifer is Jesus Christ I get it, but Baphomet?

originally posted by: Golantrevize
In order to participate in this thread one should accept the Premises ( for sake of the thread ) that Lucifer=Jesus Christ and that Baphomet ( the 19th century representation of it) does not = Satan.

I believe in a God creator of all things. For the rest I am just very curious about theology.

I get how Jesus Christ and Lucifer are the same entity in the scriptures,

it is also very explicitly said in the Catholic Exusltet Hymn sang during Easter

Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus invéniat ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occásum Christus Fílius tuus, qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit, et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

"May the morning star find his flames,
That Lucifer who knows no setting, your son Christ,
who, once he returned from hell, shone serenely upon the human race,
and lives and rules unto perpetuity."

Although in Isaiah 14: 12-17 , if the premise that Lucifer and Christ are the same is correct, I do not understand the meaning of the last phrase:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

What prisoners are we talking about here? And what cities did Christ overthrow?

What I can also not understand is how Lucifer is connected to Baphomet.

I thought Baphomet with the goat head and pagan symbology was connected to the idea of Satan but it seems to also not be the case.

I understand how Lucifer ( Jesus Christ) was wrongfully connected to Satan in Milton's Paradise lost

but How is Baphomet a representation of Jesus Christ (Lucifer) ? The imagery of Baphomet does not seem to fit Jesus Christ.

Thank you.

Firstly Lucifer is not a name.

Lucifer is Latin for "Light Bringer". In classical times the planet Venus (also called the morning star) brought light, just before the dawn. Although they already had a name for the planet Venus (which was Venus) they described it as 'the light bringer' (luciferous).

None of the Bible was originally written in Latin. In the original texts, other descriptions were used of the Biblical devil but NEVER lucifer.

And the Biblical devil is not Jesus Christ. They are opposites. They contend with each other (or are you suggesting Jesus is schizophrenic, too?).

The devil is a liar and a murderer who wanted to make himself a replacement for God. It says so quite clearly in the Bible.

Jesus Christ committed no sin. It also says so quite clearly in the Bible.

The devil was a created being. It says so quite clearly in the Bible.

Jesus Christ existed as God from before creation. He was not created, it says so quite clearly in the Bible.

So Jesus just doesn't equal the devil. At all. That is the devil's same lie (where he would make himself out to be God) all over again.

Since Jesus isn't the devil, it follows that Jesus isn't Baphomet (who is a representation of the devil).

Sometimes I think that 'ignorance' is the new 'knowledgeable'.

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: markosity1973

Since you seem to know your Scriptures, could you explain to me this passage I am having a hard time comprehending :

‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

The man in question is identified in the text as "the King of Tyre" (Tyre was an ancient sea-port city).

The passage it was taken from is heavily poetic and may not have referred to a human king but it also may have.

The issue is that it describes the King of Tyre as being an angel (the anointed cherub who covers) who was in the garden of Eden (among other things).

This is often understood to be that "the King of Tyre" is a metaphor for the devil but the text may actually be referring to a human King and the stuff about his perfection, angelic origin and having been in the Garden of Eden may be the metaphor.

It is likely that the King of Tyre (a human) had built up legends about himself (now lost to history) and that these were being parodied by Isaiah, in the passage, showing that the King was not as amazing or great as he pretended. In context to the other nation Kings that Isaiah proscribes laments over (Egypt, Babylon, Moab, Edom, Phillistia, Ammon & etc.) it is likely that this is the most rational interpretation of the passage, but very few agree with me.

a reply to: chr0naut

Please read op I never said jesus was the devil thanks

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: chr0naut

Please read op I never said jesus was the devil thanks

Since most people equate Lucifer as being a personal name for the devil, I was just trying to clarify things.

a reply to: chr0naut

Ya its quite facsinating how time can distort something that was never even mentionned in the book as dogma.

a reply to: Golantrevize

How about this? No. No, I do not have to accept your ridiculous premise to participate. My participation is to tell you that your premise is beyond faulty. It's based on faulty modern translations.

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: chr0naut

Please read op I never said jesus was the devil thanks

What you did say is that Jesus is Lucifer. Most people equate Lucifer with being Satan.

Again the complexities of language have been your sticking point.

Perhaps if you had started with 'Lucifer is not Satan' and presented the info that has been disseminated about the Isaiah passage you put in the OP the conversation would have gone a different way.

a reply to: Golantrevize

The bible clearly refers to the devil as a serpent. I.e, a reptile. Baphomet is a relatively recent concept adopted by modern Satanism.

a reply to: Golantrevize

One thing ive noticed growing up around music is that Baphomet is very popular with artists and performers.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Lucifer and Satan are the same individual whom exist in seperate states of grace...

Lucifer is the angelic name while in the favor God and bestowed many blessings...

Satan is his name after being striped of his rank title favor and all blessings...

Although they are the same individual they couldn't be further from one another in likeness...

originally posted by: Golantrevize


"May the morning star find his flames,
That Lucifer who knows no setting, your son Christ,
who, once he returned from hell, shone serenely upon the human race,
and lives and rules unto perpetuity."

Although in Isaiah 14: 12-17 , if the premise that Lucifer and Christ are the same is correct, I do not understand the meaning of the last phrase:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

What prisoners are we talking about here? And what cities did Christ overthrow?

What I can also not understand is how Lucifer is connected to Baphomet.

I thought Baphomet with the goat head and pagan symbology was connected to the idea of Satan but it seems to also not be the case.

I understand how Lucifer ( Jesus Christ) was wrongfully connected to Satan in Milton's Paradise lost

but How is Baphomet a representation of Jesus Christ (Lucifer) ? The imagery of Baphomet does not seem to fit Jesus Christ.

To begin with the prisoners are all those trapped in the Second Heaven as Enoch reports from the Most High's mouth as Venus. As he visited there he said it was a place of Punishment where the prisoners were hanging in spirit form. According to Howard O. Pittman in his book Placebo it has absolutely no Love there and that means no Light. According to Enoch it was darker than earthly darkness. According to at least these 2 witnesses Venus (2nd Heaven) is not what we have been told. It's dark it's on the 2nd Heaven and NOT a Bright and Morning star. The Morning star is the Sun on the 4th Heaven. It resides there with it's consort the Moon. Now that means that Both Venus (2 Heaven) and Mars (3rd Heaven) have to be VISABLE in between Earth (1st Heaven) and the Sun and Moon on the 4th Heaven.

It turns out they are so dark the only time they can be seen is when they usurp the Light of the Sun and the Moon. This is the TRUE causes of Lunar and Solar Eclipses. All of this is ties to that scripture in Isaiah but if you don't look in the right places you'll never find it. When you look at a total eclipse wheter Solar or Lunar you are looking at Luci which is just another name for Venus. When you see an annular that is Satan on Mars. THERE'S MORE

originally posted by: Golantrevize
What prisoners are we talking about here? And what cities did Christ overthrow?

Does it matter? The purpose of the Bible is to get people to believe in "kingdoms", "lords", and "chosen people". This way the local monarchy can convince the people going to war is God's will and killing the "enemy" is morally okay because the "enemy" is not the "chosen people".

I think Jesus was crucified because he said love thy enemy and we are all sons and daughters of the same God, and therefore, all members of the same tribe. So is just having faith in Christ or proclaiming you have taken Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior enough? I don't think so if you are supporting war and killing people who are not "chosen".

Hello Golantrevize.

You are correct about Jesus being mentioned as the Morning Star, a.k.a.; "Lucifer":

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright (lampros) and morning (prōinos) star (astēr)."
- Revelation 22:16





As a few have mentioned, the English and Latin inclusion of the word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 is a gross mistranslation.

Lucifer is Latin for, "Light-Bringing/Bearer", and as a Venusian epithet; "Morning Star".

In this Biblical instance, "Lucifer, Son of the Morning", is an outdated and inaccurate translation, originating from St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible. The myth and imagery of a Satanic Lucifer was then perpetuated by the King James Version of the Bible, and the fictional epic poems; Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy and John Milton's Paradise Lost.

In place of "Lucifer", the original Hebrew actually reads;
"Heylel (הֵילֵ֣ל) Ben (בֶּן־) Shachar (שָׁ֑חַר)"

Which literally means;
"Heylel, the Son of Shachar".

The word, "Heylel" (הֵילֵ֣ל), is rather enigmatic. According to several Concordances, Heylel is defined as: "a shining one" and "star of the morning".

According to "The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible", by Jeff A. Benner, the roots for "Heylel" center around the concepts; "Behold", "Look toward", and "Shining".


Literally, we can say (Heyl-El Ben Shachar):
"Behold the Shining One of El/God, Son of Shachar"

Shachar is synonymous with the specific light of dawn, not light in general, as the Hebrew words for "Light" are typically derived from the root "Nun-Hey-Resh" (N-H-R), such as "Neharah", "Nehir", and "Nahar". This is similar to Arabic's word for light, being, "Nur".

Shachar is a Canaanite deity representative of the "Morning Star," which is Venus on the eastern horizon before sunrise.

Now we have;
"Heyl-El, the Son of the Morning Star"

As we have the "Morning Star," we also have the "Evening Star." Venus, as the evening star, sits on the western horizon after sunset. The evening star was known in the Levant as the deity Shalim, and to the Greeks as the deity Hesperus.

The Greeks treated the morning star as one deity, and the evening star as a separate deity,... although they knew that both were the planet Venus. In tale and story, Venus was separated into Phosphorus and Hesperus, but always understood, intellectually, to both be Venus. The same can be said about the Levantines regarding Shachar and Shalim. Both cultures knew the morning and evening stars to be Venus.

So now we can deduce:
"Heyl-El, Son of Venus."

According to Greek mythology, Venus was a prominent goddess. And through archetype and correlation, we parallel the goddess Venus to the goddesses Inanna, Ishtar, Athirat, and Asherah. Asherah/Athirat happens to be the consort of El.

Now we have;
"Heyl-El, Son of Asherah/Athirat."

Deduced;
"Behold the Shining One of El, Son of Shachar / Venus / Asherah/Athirat"





Instead of any connection to Satan or Lucifer whatsoever, I personally opine that Isaiah 14 is addressed to the King of Babylon, referencing a page out of the Canaanite Religion. The Canaanite reference may have been intended to cite a commonly known mythos, to strike a forceful message to the Babylonian King.

We must once again refer to the original Hebrew to uncover the clues:

4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the King of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! The golden city ceased!
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12. How art thou fallen (naphalta [נָפַ֥לְתָּ]) from heaven (mis'sa mayim [מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם]), Heylel Ben Shachar (הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־ שָׁ֑חַר)! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of El (אֵ֖ל [God]); I will sit enthroned on the mount (be-har [בְּהַר־]) of assembly, on the utmost of (be-yarkete [בְּיַרְכְּתֵ֥י]) Mount Zephon (tsaphon [צָפֽוֹן׃]).

14. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like Elyon (לְעֶלְיֽוֹן׃ [Most High]).”

-Isaiah 14:4 & 12-14

[Verse 12]
The figure in question literally; "fell from Heaven". This rules out any human being.


[Verse 13]
El was the Canaanite deity known as the Father of the Gods, as he is said to have had 70 Sons (Bene Elim).

Mount Zephon is known today as Mount Aqraa. It is upon this mountain that Baal Hadad, Son of El and Athirat/Asherah, established his throne and sanctuary. From this event of the Baal Cycle, we get the name/title: Baal-Zephon.


[Verse 14]
Elyon was the Canaanite deity known as the primordial Most High God, who birthed primordial existence, including the Father deity El.


According to the Canaanite Religion, Baal Hadad was a Son of El, who sought to usurp El's authority, succeed Elyon, and establish a throne on Mount Zephon. Isaiah 14:12-14 illustrates this perfectly. We get an even stronger affirmation if we correlate Shachar's Venusian symbolism to the Venusian symbolism of Athirat and Asherah. It appears very likely that Heyl-El and Baal Hadad could actually be one-in-the-same.

a reply to: Golantrevize

As for Baphomet,... this figure comes to us from the malicious and fraudulent Inquisitions of King Philip IV of France.

Philip fell into debt with the Knights Templars, and to clear himself of his debts, he attacked the Templars with false allegations of idol worship and blasphemy, among other charges. While suffering torture from inquisitors, some Templars agreed to the prefabricated accusations of Baphomet worship, in order to stop the persecution and abuse. Upon release, Templars recanted their forced confessions.

After the matter, Pope Clement V, in the Chinon Parchments, fully absolved the Templars of Baphomet worship, idol worship, blasphemy, and all other accusations of wrong-doings were acknowledged as false.

Baphomet was invented to wrongly persecute the Knights Templars.





Eliphas Levi's illustration of the Sabbatical Goat is the main image that comes to mind when we hear "Baphomet". Levi's illustration is far from symbolizing anything evil, wicked, or Satanic, but is instead a beautiful depiction of the balance and harmony of duality.

a reply to: Sahabi

Thank you for your contribution , it is alot to digest but I will look into everything you linked.

Also thank you for mentioning Baphomet, I agree with you that it is a beautiful depiction of duality. What I do not understand is why would levi taint it with the goat elements that everyone ( even in his time) associated with Satan? To a point where if I was to be seen with it people would automatically take me for a satanist.

a reply to: Golantrevize

The goat depiction is meant to symbolize the carnal, physical, and beastial nature in man, in contrast to his higher spiritual nature, being another element of Levi's illustrated duality.

a reply to: Sahabi

Baphomet is
Cernunnos
"scholars often describe Cernunnos as the "Lord of the Animals" or the "Lord of Wild Things",
en.wikipedia.org...

an interesting connection Ciarán of Saigir

A tradition shared by all four Lives describes Ciarán as a holy man wearing skins, whose first pupils are animals in the forest.[4] This corresponds to the image of him as a Western John the Baptist, wearing skins and dwelling in the wilderness, seemingly as a forerunner to St. Patrick as John was to Christ

Pashupati
"Lord of all animals"
en.wikipedia.org...

is associated with asceticism, yoga, and linga; regarded as a lord of animals; and often depicted as having three heads. The figure has often been connected with the widespread motif of the Master of Animals found in ancient Near Eastern and Mediterranean art, and the many other traditions of horned deities.[1]

Baphomet has 3 faces

Some people should just be slapped.

The OP is one of those people.

originally posted by: 8dayruddyman

originally posted by: Golantrevize


"May the morning star find his flames,
That Lucifer who knows no setting, your son Christ,
who, once he returned from hell, shone serenely upon the human race,
and lives and rules unto perpetuity."

Although in Isaiah 14: 12-17 , if the premise that Lucifer and Christ are the same is correct, I do not understand the meaning of the last phrase:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

What prisoners are we talking about here? And what cities did Christ overthrow?

What I can also not understand is how Lucifer is connected to Baphomet.

I thought Baphomet with the goat head and pagan symbology was connected to the idea of Satan but it seems to also not be the case.

I understand how Lucifer ( Jesus Christ) was wrongfully connected to Satan in Milton's Paradise lost

but How is Baphomet a representation of Jesus Christ (Lucifer) ? The imagery of Baphomet does not seem to fit Jesus Christ.

To begin with the prisoners are all those trapped in the Second Heaven as Enoch reports from the Most High's mouth as Venus. As he visited there he said it was a place of Punishment where the prisoners were hanging in spirit form. According to Howard O. Pittman in his book Placebo it has absolutely no Love there and that means no Light. According to Enoch it was darker than earthly darkness. According to at least these 2 witnesses Venus (2nd Heaven) is not what we have been told. It's dark it's on the 2nd Heaven and NOT a Bright and Morning star. The Morning star is the Sun on the 4th Heaven. It resides there with it's consort the Moon. Now that means that Both Venus (2 Heaven) and Mars (3rd Heaven) have to be VISABLE in between Earth (1st Heaven) and the Sun and Moon on the 4th Heaven.

It turns out they are so dark the only time they can be seen is when they usurp the Light of the Sun and the Moon. This is the TRUE causes of Lunar and Solar Eclipses. All of this is ties to that scripture in Isaiah but if you don't look in the right places you'll never find it. When you look at a total eclipse wheter Solar or Lunar you are looking at Luci which is just another name for Venus. When you see an annular that is Satan on Mars. THERE'S MORE

The place of Condemnation on the 2nd Heaven this lightless Venus/Lucifer is said to be the literal home between lives of the Soldier Egregori Giants referred to as the cream of Satan's crop by Howard O. PITman who survived a near death experience where he states in his Book He saw Giant warring Angels, Men of Greed in business suits , Animals both who where know and unknown, Blended animals with men, and beings so vile and disgusting it nauseated him even in the Spirit. This place has many names; LEVIathan, ASHtart, ISis, Aphrodite, SemiRamis and Venus the so called God of Love but there is no Love there. This is the Lucifer's Prison spoken of by Isaiah.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Lucifer=Jesus Christ , Baphomet, Satan

1) haSatan is more linked with Iblis who is the leader of all jinn. The 3rd rank of jinn is Shaitan (haSatan). So satan is not even a single entity name.

2) Who gives a crap for Luzerfuhrer et al anyway, because they are all going to be thrown into a lake of Holy Water.

Baphomet is probably a human / goat experiment like the Hydras and Minotaur in Ancient Greece. Similar to Ra in Egypt.