the art of Samurai sword forging.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
One of the best Katana FAQ's on the net.

www.jref.com...

And if you plan to get a sword. I suggest doing lots reseach before buying and also doing some study. Aikido movements are all designed to be used with a katana making that a very natural cross-over. Add some Iajitsu and Kendo to that (as I have done) and you will learn some great techniques.

The goal of the katana was not to do sword-to-sword combat, but rather combined with Iajitsu to become a "one cut, one life" method of combat.

Nice rounded post. I like how you studied i am much a fan of the ancient samurai methods. I believe you are practically duplicating there training yourself. Any way i am a big fan of the martial arts but recently read the book of five rings by myamoto musashi. I suggest you read this its very in depth philoshpy of a warrior.

Sword of truth fan eh? me too awesome.

Originally posted by RedHare
Many of the Japnese cultures are mystified by the west especially the hollywood. Like Ninja for example, they were mere scouts/thieves or even warriors without honor who served a warlord but when depicted in hollywood movies, the become legendary fighters.
The Katana is also one of those things exaggerated by the media. The japanese sword forging technique was actually acquired from China in the Tang Dynasty. It was a sub catagory form of peasantry metal working called "The thousand-leaves fold" technique. It was such a big deal to the Japanese when they learned the technology along with Chinese Characters and language, They used it in every aspect of their lives. If you have a Samurai sword or katana, observe the wave-like pattern on the edge. It is the tail-tell sign of "the Thousand-Leaves fold" Technique. Since it was the only forging technique they acquired you'll also find the same wavy pattern if you go out and acquire a Japanese kitchen meat cleaver.
I have seen a lo of links in Chinese on modern Chinese sword forging masters. I am sure there are some english sites on the same subject. Do some research if you are interested.

Yes cinema has exagerrated the likes of the east but what isn't exagerrated by it. Any way the reason they use this technique in so many things is its an extremely intelligent way to make your steel better.
For the application of it in kitchen knives,... why not. If a samurai sword is so good why not utilize the technology in your kitchen.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
The Katana is both hard and soft, in terms of metal. It is considered soft on the back/spine side to maintain flexibility, and hardened on the cutting/blade side for obvious reasons. Also, the traditional makers of these swords had different styles, and the maker could be identified by the style of blade, the tip being the most easy aspect of identification.

I respect that the tip is the easiest way to identify but not the most accurate. I believe the tang is the most accurate. (the part under the handle.) it has rust to identify the age and sometimes with some blacksmiths they would actually engrave script into the metal of the date maker and folds and some other specs.

Originally posted by Magickesists

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
One of the best Katana FAQ's on the net.

www.jref.com...

And if you plan to get a sword. I suggest doing lots reseach before buying and also doing some study. Aikido movements are all designed to be used with a katana making that a very natural cross-over. Add some Iajitsu and Kendo to that (as I have done) and you will learn some great techniques.

The goal of the katana was not to do sword-to-sword combat, but rather combined with Iajitsu to become a "one cut, one life" method of combat.

Nice rounded post. I like how you studied i am much a fan of the ancient samurai methods. I believe you are practically duplicating there training yourself. Any way i am a big fan of the martial arts but recently read the book of five rings by myamoto musashi. I suggest you read this its very in depth philoshpy of a warrior.

Sword of truth fan eh? me too awesome.

Myamoto advocates the sword (katana even) being a one-handed weapon =)...

So his philosophy is not really pro-modern-katana enthuisiasts (generalizing but still accurate)...

I myself agree with alot of what he says in the Book of Five Rings. Including the sword primarily being one-handed (combat effective).

I have trained in Japanese Swordsmanship at an Aikido dojo. I currently train in San Miguel Eskrima (Doce Pares, FMA). I have applied my knowledge of the sword in martial art tournaments and the SCA.


[edit on 012828p://5u52 by Lucid Lunacy]

Gar, I read sowrd fighting...(trained in kenjitsu)

As to the forging aspect, I talked with a friend at a Bible study last night about that. Guess he knows a lot about steel and the refining process and how the folding of the metal 20k times would remove the carbon from the iron. I'll see if I can get some more info from him on sunday and post it here. Damascus steel, forged much the same way, is still one of the strongest steels out there, tho.

I'm going to have to show this thread to a friend of mine. He restores VERY old swords (I am talking like 1000+ year old swords). He lived in Japan for 2 years to study this, and gets people over there sending their swords state side for him to work on.

I'm sure he could add a ton to this topic.

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread

[edit on 2-5-2005 by junglejake]

Actually there are not many real samurai swords anymore, there are more katana's in the United States and Europe then in Japan. The swords in Japan are considered national treasures.

A true katana had 1500+ folds in it, and could easily glide through bone.

Titanium makes a better sword? Maybe if your making them in a big factory out of molds. Japanese sword making was an art. To have a true Katana made it would actually cost you quite a bit of money.

I forget who first started making the katana, but the man noticed how the samurai were coming home from battle with broken / dull swords. After a few attempts and refining it. The Samurai were returning home with swords in almost mint condition.


On a side note, the samrai would often burn insence inside their helmets before battle. Just incase someone took their head as a trophy, it would not stink.

I believe that the steel was not folded over 1000 times it was folded soemwhere on the order of 150 to 300 times increasing the swords strength 1000 or 2000 fold its a way of saying the wsowrd gets far more sturdy. However the core of softer steel was folded only around ten or twenty times maybe as much as 30 but never to much. The carbon loss was fixed by having the fire made of charcoal and coating the steel in straw and claw to seal in the carbon if they lost to much carbon then they would usually throw the sword away. as i heard somewhere theres usually 5 out of ten swords or something that is useless because of impurities and such even for a master blacksmith.

One thing i am still wondering is the positioning of the grains of the folds in the two different steel parts. Was it placed perpendicular to eachother or parallel.

nice mention of the guy who restores the old swords, thats hard to do right theres a finite amount of ateel that can be removed from a sword and at that poit its very hard to do without ruining the sword.

Ok obviously the samurai sword is the product of some good metalurgy and making an alloy of high carbon and low carbo steel but does anyone know if maybe there are some other alloys that would work better hmmmmm. like maybe depleted uranium and silver or soemthing some kind of super exotic metals which owuld be insane.

actually there were many good swords made in different time and palces.
Katana has been glorified by the movies.

The arab scimitar was very good. Spainish toledo swords are also legendary.

Again every swords has its purpose . As good as it is the katana is no use against armor.

Originally posted by JADESTONE
actually there were many good swords made in different time and palces.
Katana has been glorified by the movies.

The arab scimitar was very good. Spainish toledo swords are also legendary.

Again every swords has its purpose . As good as it is the katana is no use against armor.

I thought samurai had katanas so they could kill those with armour. thus the ridgitity of the sword when used to stab. Any way the toledo swords and the scimitars were also great swords but they still didn't posses the same amount of technical tinkering that the japanese katanas needed. This is why if you were to take one of the samurai swords versus a toledo sword versus a scimitar youd have some neat results. i believe that the smaurai swords ARE capable of cutting through steel of low quality. but much more practical in the stab. the toledo sword and scimitar are heavier and designed for a different kind of attack. more of a hack if you will then a cut.
Once again the samurai sword does not need glorification from cinema to be a truly amazing feat of metallurgy. It is amazing as is.

swordforum.com...

Here is a step by step, how-to. If anyone is intrested.


www.forging.org...

Nice pdf, with some good history.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by Magickesists

Originally posted by JADESTONE
actually there were many good swords made in different time and palces.
Katana has been glorified by the movies.

The arab scimitar was very good. Spainish toledo swords are also legendary.

Again every swords has its purpose . As good as it is the katana is no use against armor.

I thought samurai had katanas so they could kill those with armour. thus the ridgitity of the sword when used to stab. Any way the toledo swords and the scimitars were also great swords but they still didn't posses the same amount of technical tinkering that the japanese katanas needed. This is why if you were to take one of the samurai swords versus a toledo sword versus a scimitar youd have some neat results. i believe that the smaurai swords ARE capable of cutting through steel of low quality. but much more practical in the stab. the toledo sword and scimitar are heavier and designed for a different kind of attack. more of a hack if you will then a cut.
Once again the samurai sword does not need glorification from cinema to be a truly amazing feat of metallurgy. It is amazing as is.

Glorification in the sense that they show it cutting steel. the sword will lose its edge. Katana is trully a very good sword , japanese had made it an art and science.

But put it against european armor it will fail. Although the jap samurai wore armor it was light. and the japs had made sword fighting an art where they attacked the weak points in the armor .

Originally posted by _BLiNDeD_
Actually there are not many real samurai swords anymore, there are more katana's in the United States and Europe then in Japan. The swords in Japan are considered national treasures.

Somewhere in an attic or basement in the U.S.A. there are 11 missing National Treasure Swords and 24 swords designated as important cultural properties of Japan. Thought to have been taken back after WW2, My Grandfather was in the navy at the time and told me stories how they would dump loads of those swords into the ocean. Some were surley taken back as war trophies.

Depending on the sword maker,condition real samurai swords can be worth a million plus dollars. Since about the KOTO period swords were put through performing cutting tests. Performed on various combinations of materials bundles of bamboo laden with mud and tied, helmets, horn, iron of various degrees of hardness and even human bodies. This was done on the bodies of criminals.

Swords were tested only by licensed testers. The results of the test along with the date and name of the tester were then inscribed, (mainly in gold), on the tang of the sword.

You see things like ''this sword cut through 3 bodies'' written on them. Sword with such a test recorded on them are worth a great deal more. I know Steven Seagal has one such sword worth about a million dollars.

Swords are tools, used to kill. the right tool, for the right job.
The Japanese katana has roughly 1000 years of experimentation and history behind it, and is a highly refined and technological mettalurgical achievement. The folding achieves several purposes; mixing disimalar materials evenly, and stregthening the blade itself.
A true Katana will cut through metal, it is what they were designed to do. Japanese warriors wore metal Armor, and the technology of the Katana rose to overcome that.

We do not know all the tricks of the trade, and anyone that believes or tells you they do is full of it. Each school of swordmaking had their own trade secrets, and kept them religiously. For all we know they were quenching the blade in cow urine, or adding in alloys during folding, or cooling the blade in snow...we simply do not know the reason swords made by a particular school outperfomed those from another.

As far as the best Material available today for a edged weapon, L605 (also known as Haynes25) is about the best commercially available. We manufacture components for nuclear reactors and rocket exhaust assemblies from it. It is incredibly tough, and when properly heat treated will take an edge that you can use as a screwdriver or crowbar with no damage. We have cut 1/8 thick hot rolled steel with it for fun.
there are swordmakers that manufacture from L605, they charge around 6000-7000 each. Be carefull, as there is a flood of imitation L605 out there that is not true L6. ( Haynes25 is the manufacture grade)

Originally posted by toolmaker

Swords are tools, used to kill. the right tool, for the right job.
The Japanese katana has roughly 1000 years of experimentation and history behind it, and is a highly refined and technological mettalurgical achievement. The folding achieves several purposes; mixing disimalar materials evenly, and stregthening the blade itself.
A true Katana will cut through metal, it is what they were designed to do. Japanese warriors wore metal Armor, and the technology of the Katana rose to overcome that.

We do not know all the tricks of the trade, and anyone that believes or tells you they do is full of it. Each school of swordmaking had their own trade secrets, and kept them religiously. For all we know they were quenching the blade in cow urine, or adding in alloys during folding, or cooling the blade in snow...we simply do not know the reason swords made by a particular school outperfomed those from another.

As far as the best Material available today for a edged weapon, L605 (also known as Haynes25) is about the best commercially available. We manufacture components for nuclear reactors and rocket exhaust assemblies from it. It is incredibly tough, and when properly heat treated will take an edge that you can use as a screwdriver or crowbar with no damage. We have cut 1/8 thick hot rolled steel with it for fun.
there are swordmakers that manufacture from L605, they charge around 6000-7000 each. Be carefull, as there is a flood of imitation L605 out there that is not true L6. ( Haynes25 is the manufacture grade)

Wow is that so i would really like a sword that can cut through rolled steel sounds incredible. You would have no problem with getting through traffic in rush hour lol.