the art of Samurai sword forging.

Maybe a little out of place in this forum but i think there should be a thread for all those sword enthusiasts. The samurai sword forging is after all a very scientific method of sword building.

Anyway from the things i have been reading the art of forging a katana is very time consuming and difficult. The thing i am wondering about such a thing is the amount af folds and the folding techniques. There are a lot of people who claim to have found the way to build these marvelous swords but are they correct? Is there some long lost secret to the folding technique.

I have read about several ways of folding the steal and so far only one sticks out as really worthy. mind you whenever you fold steel it will increase in strength, but one way in particular says something about twisting the steel as well.

For instance they make the bar of steel then twist one end 180 degrees then fold it over ittself . Would this really work though i wonder? I mean your working with steel not silly putty. if it is twisted well heated wouldn't it most likely break into two peices?

Intresting topic, and no i dont think it will break when steel is at a high height, it is not putty but it is very flexable and very formable. This could be a way to make a (forget the name) kill bill sword. lol
It is intresting also that you think with all the technology we have today that we can not make a katana much stronger than the old sword forgers did.

They don't twist per say, they fold , hammer, fold, hammer fold and so on, the more folds a katana has the stronger it is.--it's "soft steel made flexible yet strong by the folds-- Katana were "advertised" so to speak by the number of folds they had. A Katana, is a sword, each type of Katana had a different name. I've included some links for you

home.earthlink.net...

www.geocities.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

--Be sure and read the contents of the article it has interesting (though at times long)

Kenjutsu -

www.martial-way.com...


There are many commercial sites regarding Katana, I did not include those, however a google search will give you more than what you need.

It is intresting also that you think with all the technology we have today that we can not make a katana much stronger than the old sword forgers did.

It was a limit of the steel, not the technology...

Nowadays, you could make a titanium sword for example, that would chop an ancient Samurai Sword in half...

Titanium sword my god does that sound so really cool, do you think that someone acturly makes them? I know they would be expensive, but to me it sounds something i would sell my house for!

Titanium sword would be very strong but it flexes and bends and does not hold its edge. so titanium swords would be bad in battle. Now if you vapor deposited tungstun carbide on the edge of the blade then it would hold its edge and be light and strong, yet still hold the edge.

In any case, I think you see my point...

OH my God.......................

Ok people this sites motto is deny Ignorance right?

So lets start
1) titanium would suck for swords, contrary to popular belief. It got a reputation due to its use in the SR-71 but that was for its heat properties.

2) No there are no lost arts in terms of making a katana. In fact the japanese government liscenses those who make the traditonal Nihonto. In addition those who truly master the art are considered living natonal treasres by the japanese government

3) folding the sword does not make it stronger. Folding is a very good engineering solution to the problem of the low quality ore (Tamaghene) that was and still is used in the construction of nihonto. Its only purpose is to even out the impurities in the ore so as to make the steel more homogenous
www.nihontoken.org...
www.nihonto.com...,23
home.earthlink.net...
swordforum.com...

For more information about swords and sword arts from bladesmiths, mettalurgists, WMA and EMA practitioners, including Japanese Chinese, European, African Mlitary, Civilian and dueling
Swords go to
www.swordforum.com...

I dont know if I am allowed to post this link, but as t has direct bearing on the thread and I do not own it I am going to try.

[edit on 3-2-2005 by mwm1331]

[edit on 3-2-2005 by mwm1331]

I'm going to retract the earlier statement...as after a bit of education, it seems steel is actually the better metal for this particular application. I was going based off the strength to weight ratio of titanium versus steel, but it seems there are numerous other considerations to take into account.

This by the way, is the best link I saw for an explanation...
swordforum.com...

Many thanks mwm1331, as it's always nice to learn something new in a day...

How's that for denying ignorance?

PS -

I dont know if I am allowed to post this link, but as t has direct bearing on the thread and I do not own it I am going to try.

Seems perfectly appropriate in my book....

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Gazrok]

Steel is almost a composite metal, tho usualt trace elements are used to make it stronger.

I am still waiting for someone to make a sword out of Mettalic glass, which has some amazing properties and even will keep it's edge

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'm going to retract the earlier statement...as after a bit of education, it seems steel is actually the better metal for this particular application. I was going based off the strength to weight ratio of titanium versus steel, but it seems there are numerous other considerations to take into account.

This by the way, is the best link I saw for an explanation...
swordforum.com...

Many thanks mwm1331, as it's always nice to learn something new in a day...

How's that for denying ignorance?

PS -

I dont know if I am allowed to post this link, but as t has direct bearing on the thread and I do not own it I am going to try.

Seems perfectly appropriate in my book....

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Gazrok]

Correct Titanium is not an ideal metal for weapons, it doesn't retain the edge. Unless it is mixed in with other metals to make a super alloy. Titanium makes for wicked armor though. (I make armor).

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Steel is almost a composite metal, tho usualt trace elements are used to make it stronger.

I am still waiting for someone to make a sword out of Mettalic glass, which has some amazing properties and even will keep it's edge

With the forging techniques i have read up on before i believe the edge of a sword is crysalized in the heating with the clay tempering. This turns the edges molecular structure into very uniform and hard steel. I believe te temr for the metal after the forging is martensite. this is when the pearlite and ferite are bonded together and the sword is basically way stronger in part due to that part.

This is probably no feasible but i know there is usually a core of soft steel and i was wondering if the softer steel could be swapped with silver. I know it would be retardedly expensive but is it possible i wonder?

I have been looking for where to buy a good sword and paul chen of hanwei forge has an amazingly strong carbide blade high carbon steel. He says its stronger than the usual steel.

Here ya go.

people.howstuffworks.com...

And as a note, katanas used in Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu were not sharp because the weapons were seen as utilities. Other weapons were better and quieter for striking down an opponent. It was the Samurai katanas that utilized the folded steel, so that the edge would be strong and retain its edge even after cutting off an extremity(sp?)/limb.

The Katana is both hard and soft, in terms of metal. It is considered soft on the back/spine side to maintain flexibility, and hardened on the cutting/blade side for obvious reasons. Also, the traditional makers of these swords had different styles, and the maker could be identified by the style of blade, the tip being the most easy aspect of identification.

Magickesists

Great post, thanks for starting this one off - I'm learning loads.

Many of the Japnese cultures are mystified by the west especially the hollywood. Like Ninja for example, they were mere scouts/thieves or even warriors without honor who served a warlord but when depicted in hollywood movies, the become legendary fighters.
The Katana is also one of those things exaggerated by the media. The japanese sword forging technique was actually acquired from China in the Tang Dynasty. It was a sub catagory form of peasantry metal working called "The thousand-leaves fold" technique. It was such a big deal to the Japanese when they learned the technology along with Chinese Characters and language, They used it in every aspect of their lives. If you have a Samurai sword or katana, observe the wave-like pattern on the edge. It is the tail-tell sign of "the Thousand-Leaves fold" Technique. Since it was the only forging technique they acquired you'll also find the same wavy pattern if you go out and acquire a Japanese kitchen meat cleaver.
I have seen a lo of links in Chinese on modern Chinese sword forging masters. I am sure there are some english sites on the same subject. Do some research if you are interested.

Originally posted by Magickesists

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Steel is almost a composite metal, tho usualt trace elements are used to make it stronger.

I am still waiting for someone to make a sword out of Mettalic glass, which has some amazing properties and even will keep it's edge

With the forging techniques i have read up on before i believe the edge of a sword is crysalized in the heating with the clay tempering. This turns the edges molecular structure into very uniform and hard steel. I believe te temr for the metal after the forging is martensite. this is when the pearlite and ferite are bonded together and the sword is basically way stronger in part due to that part.

This is probably no feasible but i know there is usually a core of soft steel and i was wondering if the softer steel could be swapped with silver. I know it would be retardedly expensive but is it possible i wonder?

I have been looking for where to buy a good sword and paul chen of hanwei forge has an amazingly strong carbide blade high carbon steel. He says its stronger than the usual steel.

To enable a samurai sword to be very good, all the crystaline domains in the blade metal must be as few, or all joined in majority together. Think of it like a window, if it is cracked it is easier to kick through, but if it is in one piece it is much harder to kick through.
Teh proces of heating and moulding and cooling slowly of the blade enables the giant metallic crystaline structure to be made.

im surprised no one has mentioned the use of Hybrid Nano Composites these things look as though they could cut through a tank. even though im certain the application to sword refinment would be quite the daunting ordeal, prospects are looking positive

One of the best Katana FAQ's on the net.

www.jref.com...

And if you plan to get a sword. I suggest doing lots reseach before buying and also doing some study. Aikido movements are all designed to be used with a katana making that a very natural cross-over. Add some Iajitsu and Kendo to that (as I have done) and you will learn some great techniques.

The goal of the katana was not to do sword-to-sword combat, but rather combined with Iajitsu to become a "one cut, one life" method of combat.