Im a muslim

Ok, now I understand, vincere7.
It is a deep spiritual experience once you open up to the possibilty of existence of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

Such spiritual experiences exist in other religions and cultures too, only they are not refered to as "Holy Spirit". They use different terms for it, based on their own religious beliefs. It is not a strictly christian thing, but I do think that we all actually feel the same thing: the presence of higher power. The name of it is just semantics.

Originally posted by paperclip
It has to do with how Muslims view their own faith.
As you might know, Qur'an isn't a "new" book, it contains all previous religious stories, starting with creation of universe, right up to Mohammad, plus it contains a lot of instructions which were previously not or only partialy revealed to people. Muslims see Qur'an as a perfect book and Islam as a complete religion, containing all previous ones.
So, converting from Islam to other religion is seen as a step backwards, sort of. You change from complete to incomplete, partial.
Muslims respect other religions and consider other religious people as believers, but the only book which contains everything is Qur'an.

Okay I guess mosts faiths probably believe that way I know Jews think harshly on conversion and it even in some to most cases even weighs on who you may or may not marry or at least that is what I encountered with a Jewish girl I was inguaged to and I wasn't willing to take on the Jewish faith in complete form as it was to restrictive and didnt in my opinion meet my needs to effectively serve God in my heart. It probably avoids confusion in textual translations and teachings as well when there are no or atleast controlled cross contamination of faiths or beliefs.

Now, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that those who convert face death, quite the contrary. It is stated many times that there is no compulsion in religion, it is your free choice. The Qur'an is presented, revealed to human kind. It is up to individual to accept it or not.

Then why have I heard that in some strick muslim countries people are imprisioned and have been or atleast I think there was a female who was killed for actions contrary to faith by her husband and the legal system condoned it by failing to take any action against the husband on the issue, i cant remeber how long ago it was, but the stories like this have surfaced alot since 9/11 when the faith while unjustly was brought into public eye more and more. I remember hearing stories as a child also that if a woman and man of muslim faith are living here in the USA and have joint citizenship that if they devorce that there are religious and legal pressedents that say the father can take the children and return to the country of original citizens ship and there would be no custody hearings as women in muslim faith and as citizens as a whole are very limited in their rights.

How those extremists come up with punishments for conversion, or any other deed that doesn't suit them for that matter, is beyond me.

I was wondering how a faith while very strick in convictions could condon any actions even in the context of Jihad or Holy War , they are saying that the declaration of war in this context gives them to right under Muslim Religious Law to take prisioner, Behead infidels/unholy ones, and commit other violations of maral descency, They are totally wrong right, there is no rules of war is there, infact war as I understand is only spoke of as self-defense not offensive cleansing, It does not say destroy the infidels does it , it doesnt say go out and find those who refuse the faith and God of muslim faith does it?

Paperclip




I would like to thank you for taking apon yourself to respond and entertain my questions , the author should have done this and for that below you will see my gratitude, also can you elaborate on my other question in reference to to the rules of war, I know the Bible of my beliefs says only certain things maybe done, and only with the support of God shall success be achieved, infact to a point pacification is encourage but to the point of defense of your faith and others lives, we are told to be tolerant of all and fight basically only if we have to. Does the muslim Bible explain rules of conduct in this manor.

You have voted paperclip for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I dont vote evey chance I get I am very picky , but you deserve it for standing up and saying this isnt right dont start a thread and leave people hanging , thank you from me and others here who believe the same as I that dont start something you cant finish.






[edit on 8/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Originally posted by paperclip
Ok, now I understand, vincere7.
It is a deep spiritual experience once you open up to the possibilty of existence of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

Such spiritual experiences exist in other religions and cultures too, only they are not refered to as "Holy Spirit". They use different terms for it, based on their own religious beliefs. It is not a strictly christian thing, but I do think that we all actually feel the same thing: the presence of higher power. The name of it is just semantics.

I don't think you do understand - rather I know you do not. The Holy Spirit is something you receive not something you open yourself up to. Medium's open themselves up to have spiritual experiences all the time however they are not receiving the Holy Spirit of God. Spiritual experiences others choose to engage in, demonic and the like, do not have other names for receiving the Holy Spirit simply because there isn't one. Holy Spirit in any language will still translate Holy Spirit of which you can only receive by asking for such using the name of Jesus Christ.

You may like to argue that you "feel the same thing," but I assure you that you do not and this is an opinion based on what you want to believe in your mind. The statement "presence of a higher power," is wishful thinking. When you ask for the Holy Spirit of God to come upon you in the name of Jesus Christ and it does, this is not wishful thinking, nor is it an assumption of a higher power, but acknowledgement by God that you not only believe in what His word says through Christ, but that you wish to receive such. God according to His promise lives up to His word and sends the Spirit to you, acknowledging not only His existence, but showing you His power as well.

A feeling is something you get when you burn yourself. A feeling is an emotion you have when you are happy or depressed. The Holy Spirit of God is not something your mind is able to MANUFACTURE when you feel like it, according to a pain cessation, nor when you choose to do so. It separates true from a lie, God from wishful thinking, but most importantly God from what you believe or imagine.

Doh!

I was broght up Irish Catholic... but I got over it... in time...

Theres hope yet

Originally posted by Corinthas
Doh!

I was broght up Irish Catholic... but I got over it... in time...

Theres hope yet

Huh kinda funny there COR , but the change of faith was not that lightly taken was it? If I am not intruding what faith did you go into and why did you leave the Catholic church, changes of faith have fascinated me. I think knowing the reasons for conversion better helps with an inside understanding of the faith from a side outside my own beliefs for not being in the faith myself for my reasons.

drbryankkruta, I think that examples you mentioned have their origin in how people understand God's punishment.

In all religious books, God condemns many actions as "sinful", and threatens with punishment, God's punishment.
For some reason, people think that they have the authority to enforce that punishment on earth instead of God. Think of all the "witches" and pagans church killed or even it today's day and age the violence against homosexuals, abortion clinics, etc, etc. That is simply wrong. We do not have that authority.

Same goes for Islam. Example: god says that converting from Islam to other religion is a sin, that might be punished with hell. That punishment should be in the hands of God only, but people understand it differently and take it upon themselves to "punish" the unbeliever saying that's what God would do, so it is allowed.
It is a fine but very important distinction in religion which has caused many many problems throughout human history.



Edit: thanks for the vote, btw

[edit on 9-2-2005 by paperclip]

That is so because the qu'ran says you need to dress well. Some people think that is the way for women to dress. There isnt a single sentence in the qu'ran that says you need to wear it.

me being uneducated because i am muslim? Think what you say before that. My dad is a professor at the universety here in the netherlands and you wont get there when uneducated. I believe in science as that is a way to get closer to god. Not to forget i havent seen a single thing that is clearly scientific incorrect in the qu'ran.

Originally posted by paperclip
drbryankkruta, I think that examples you mentioned have their origin in how people understand God's punishment.

For some reason, people think that they have the authority to enforce that punishment on earth instead of God.

I think where this becomes an error in judgement is that people depend to much on the wars that were meant to be because put forth the situation to punish those who either torturing, killing, or otherwise harmed the children of God. The error is this: those wars were fought in times that were arcaic at the very best. The people that fight in that era based text order of combat have simply misplaced the interpretation of the times.
If more would realize that current times have moved us beyond arcaic reactions then the confusion would be obsolved.

Same goes for Islam. Example: god says that converting from Islam to other religion is a sin, that might be punished with hell. That punishment should be in the hands of God only, but people understand it differently and take it upon themselves to "punish" the unbeliever saying that's what God would do, so it is allowed.
It is a fine but very important distinction in religion which has caused many many problems throughout human history.

Another error of mans falability, God in most all religions says that he is the power and the might and that it his alone the power to judge and punish. In the older days common men were used to fight battles but only as means to and end the judgements were still God's dispite the faith.

Edit: thanks for the vote, btw

N/P it was worth the effort to get someone to talk to me.