Forgiveness is not for the Forgiven

I have a question for you….a conundrum. I compare it to the time travel paradox, like how they say it is impossible to travel backwards in time with creating some type of temporal anomaly which would result in you never having existed and therefore you could not have travelled back through time in the first place. Yes, it sort of makes you brain hum thinking about it too much.

Forgiveness

Strange concept when you think about it. Why do we seek it when we have done something wrong, when we have hurt someone we love, when we are trying to make amends ? Is it so we can convince ourselves the person we wronged is unharmed or suffering no long lasting ill effects? Or do we need them to tell us everything is alright and that we are still loved? We can try to explain our actions and vocalise our regret in the hope that we may be absolved of our wrong-doing. But are we ever really absolved ?
Growing up as a young catholic girl, taught by nuns, within the construct of the church, it seemed feasible then. Confession is good for the soul they preached. That you would confess, demonstrate your shame, be suitably repentant and accepting of your penance, and no matter how you had offended The Almighty, all of your sins would be washed away and you would be forgiven. Your soul would be cleansed and become a bright, shining host in which the Holy Spirit would dwell. You would be clean again. When you were 9 years old it all seemed possible. But then so did Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Reality is different.
Cleansing your soul takes more than a couple of Hail Marys and a dab of Holy Water. In truth, forgiveness is not for the sinner, as you carry your wrongs with you for perpetuity. They cover you like a second skin and the more you wrong people, the thicker the skin becomes until you cease to have feeling for the ones you have wronged and even for yourself.
Forgiveness, can be a glorious catharsis, it can cleanse, it can make whole again and it can make your soul a bright and shining light. But... forgiveness is not for the forgiven, it is for the forgiv-er.
It allows you to leave the hurt behind you, to move ahead and continue. Not to forget, because it is a hard thing to ask of yourself, to erase a wrong from your memory may even be an impossible task. Instead to allow the pain to pass and to recognise that human failing exists in us all is the essence of forgiveness. This process is relatively easier to work through with someone that we love, and have strong attachments to. We want to keep this person near us and in our lives, we forgive them and move on from the pain, the hurt, and the disappointment.
However, the forgiven cannot move on from their own actions. The wrong that they have done has become part of them. They carry it with them forever. It cannot be taken away in the act of forgiveness. They may or may not feel guilt, but apologies followed by forgiveness cannot remove the act itself. Or the guilt. Not for the forgiven.
We have to be able to live with ourselves, we are told that we should love ourselves. So what happens to the psyche or the soul when we fail as a human, when we have failed colossally, heinously even…...

So my question is...Can you ever forgive your self ?
Is the reality actually just like that paradox….that you never can ?

If you face the fact that people are mere humans and will make mistakes and forgive them for it, you also have to realize that you yourself are merely human and will make mistakes.

Whether you can forgive yourself, depends on your own codes and rules you've chosen to live by and how badly you broke them.

a reply to: cosmickat

IMO you are speaking about guilt..... something people do not see the connection with.

It is easy to forgive someone but that "sinner" normally carries on with a double dose of guilt as well.... that they can not move on with their lives and relive the wrong they did...over and over ....and this is guilt.

Since you brought up religion.... I know many religious people who have a problem with letting go of their "sins" ...... that they have a problem with understanding forgiveness by hanging on to them "sins" for the rest of their lives due to guilt and those who carry this guilt do not understand the payment Christ made for those who believe in him. For those who believe in Jesus Christ need to understand that their sins will be forgiven IF they have forgiven those who have sinned against them then when confessing your sins to God they are not only forgiven but forgotten.

So to anyone who lives with guilt and shame.... raise your head and give praise to God for he sent his only begotten son to us so that we may receive salvation from eternal death.

LET GO...... blow it out....

It's all about faith......How much do you have?

I may be wrong, but I think in the Jewish faith, forgiveness involves more than saying sorry. You are required to make amends (make whole again) whatever hurt you inflicted upon another. Only then, is forgiveness given by the victim. And the victim is the only one who can finally forgive you.

Makes sense to me.

originally posted by: Justso
I may be wrong, but I think in the Jewish faith, forgiveness involves more than saying sorry. You are required to make amends (make whole again) whatever hurt you inflicted upon another. Only then, is forgiveness given by the victim. And the victim is the only one who can finally forgive you.

Makes sense to me.

You are correct if you a Jew. That is Jewish law written within the five books of Moses (Torah). But I am not Jewish, I am a Christian and there is a new covenant..... one with Jesus.

When you smoke or drink, a mind of thoughtless thinking can warp your mind. Forgiveness is only for those of the twisted mind of thinking that it is better to forgive and forget. I don't buy into that bs at all. Brainwashing from the church comes to mind. Screw it. Don't forgive and don't forget, eye for an eye.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Justso
I may be wrong, but I think in the Jewish faith, forgiveness involves more than saying sorry. You are required to make amends (make whole again) whatever hurt you inflicted upon another. Only then, is forgiveness given by the victim. And the victim is the only one who can finally forgive you.

Makes sense to me.

You are correct if you a Jew. That is Jewish law written within the five books of Moses (Torah). But I am not Jewish, I am a Christian and there is a new covenant..... one with Jesus.

Jewish law is better. Just going to Jesus is a cop out.

a reply to: cosmickat

Hi cosmickat!
Great OP, really well said and you even wrote "conundrum" (one of my favourite words, lol).

There are a couple of people that I will never forgive and I'm fine with that.
I believe that 'intention' is what matters most.

If somebody hurts you intentionally, it's very different from someone who hurts you without meaning to.
Hurting people hurt people.
But that's not a good enough excuse to damage/ruin another person's life, we are all responsible for our words and actions.

Some people find peace and relief by forgiving, others by actively trying to make amends. Some will never take responsibility for what they've done, and they are usually the ones that I refuse to forgive.
jacy

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Not to argue-I have studied many religions-raised Baptist with lots of guilt.

Much prefer the Jewish faith in this regard. I don't believe that a God makes everything wrong you do alright as long as you accept him as your savior-but then again-as they say-every prisoner is born again-definitely the easy way out.

But I respect your version-just don't think it does a thing for victim or victimizer.

And I don't have to be Jewish to have that belief.

originally posted by: cosmickat
We have to be able to live with ourselves, we are told that we should love ourselves. So what happens to the psyche or the soul when we fail as a human, when we have failed colossally, heinously even…...
So my question is...Can you ever forgive your self ?
Is the reality actually just like that paradox….that you never can ?

This may be an age thing. There are so many things I have done or not done that I am unhappy with myself about at this point in my life it is beyond counting. Even so, I tend to be very forgiving of other people and myself. I'm still kind of angry about the $250,000 my brother-in-law squander in our business. But that was kind of my fault I guess for trusting him. But at this point I don't really like to hang around him. Some things are harder to forgive than others.

Life is complicated. So many things we do we have good intentions end up hurting people around us in many different ways. I don't think there has been any times where I thought, "Yeah, this really going to hurt them." And then followed through with the act. I think there are so many unintended consequences. We are selfish many times by nature. Sometimes our selfishness hurts the people around us.

In terms of ourselves, you must learn what it means to be a human being. We are very flawed creatures. Unless each of us has omnipotent powers, many times our choices are driven by outside forces or our lesser angels.

“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” Abraham Lincoln

It's probably important to get some insight into your own character and what you are trying to achieve in your life. One or two setbacks is just one or two setbacks. Here's a pretty good video on motivations of the human drama:

www.youtube.com...

You need to return to your Hero nature. All your other criticism what you need to forgive about yourself will become secondary once you start down the path of your next Hero's journey. You will never be perfect. Just accept yourself exactly the way you are. The sooner you do that the sooner you can choose to take on a new cause.

a reply to: jacygirl

I agree with your post. I was saying close to the same thing but you posted first.

originally posted by: musicismagic
When you smoke or drink, a mind of thoughtless thinking can warp your mind. Forgiveness is only for those of the twisted mind of thinking that it is better to forgive and forget. I don't buy into that bs at all. Brainwashing from the church comes to mind. Screw it. Don't forgive and don't forget, eye for an eye.

This is a recipe for the potential of having ever increasing levels of vindictiveness.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: jacygirl

I agree with your post. I was saying close to the same thing but you posted first.

lol, I was just reading yours and nodding in agreement.

I tried forgiving the people who literally blew my life apart and left me to deal with the fallout. It actually made me feel bitter, not better.
By choosing to NOT forgive them, I now have peace.

They will have to eventually account for their actions, be it karma or God or just their own guilt eating at them (hopefully).
jacy

originally posted by: jacygirl

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: jacygirl

I agree with your post. I was saying close to the same thing but you posted first.

lol, I was just reading yours and nodding in agreement.

I tried forgiving the people who literally blew my life apart and left me to deal with the fallout. It actually made me feel bitter, not better.
By choosing to NOT forgive them, I now have peace.

They will have to eventually account for their actions, be it karma or God or just their own guilt eating at them (hopefully).
jacy

Yeah. It took me 2 years just to be able to be in the same room with my brother-in-law. It's still very hard not to be angry for what I have judged as unnecessary BS. But, I am trying to accept it. It's only money, GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Whoops.

a reply to: dfnj2015

When I had money, every friend took advantage of my generosity and used me until I was broke.
My own stupidity, I can accept that.

I cut them all out of my life, nothing vengeful...just "you no longer exist in my world".
Kinda harder to do with family though.

Every situation is unique. I've never had $250,000 but if I did and somebody squandered it away...it would take a long time for me to get over it, I'm sure.
(Now I'm broke and nobody is there for me except a couple of friends who are equally broke. Money ruins relationships, sad but true.)
jacy

a reply to: jacygirl

Well, it's not as bad as the amount of money I lost in the stock market in 2000. Holy moly! Or, when I sold my house just before interest rates dropped to nothing and my previously owned house doubled in price.

I'm not sure it matters all that much. No matter how much money I have I still have the same existential problems. Piece of mind is not easy to obtain.

a reply to: cosmickat

IMPO; I believe that forgiveness is really for those doing the forgiving. This I understand from personal experience. Having forgivin someone, myself for something most would never. It was a burden lifted from me. It was hard but , I believe I have grown from my experience.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: musicismagic
When you smoke or drink, a mind of thoughtless thinking can warp your mind. Forgiveness is only for those of the twisted mind of thinking that it is better to forgive and forget. I don't buy into that bs at all. Brainwashing from the church comes to mind. Screw it. Don't forgive and don't forget, eye for an eye.

This is a recipe for the potential of having ever increasing levels of vindictiveness.

I agree. Think of life as a motorcycle journey. You are going to get hurt if you try to exact
retribution for every infraction that offends you. People have lost all sense of etiquette, and it is a deadly mix on the road. I can't even watch drivers anymore. I can see what they are doing. It makes me sick.

# 759

originally posted by: Rendaria
a reply to: cosmickat

IMPO; I believe that forgiveness is really for those doing the forgiving. This I understand from personal experience. Having forgivin someone, myself for something most would never. It was a burden lifted from me. It was hard but , I believe I have grown from my experience.

Exactly! A burden was lifted.

Forgiveness will give you peace.

Failing to forgive? It is torment to the soul. You recall this act over and over again with those same feelings you had when it occurred.

cosmickat

I think that even if someone offers you forgiveness, you still carry around the guilt and will not forgive yourself. Not because you can't, but because most people know that the initial "I forgive you" are just words. It is very rare, that we truly forgive someone completely when we first utter them...because humans give a lot of lip service now a days. We do things because it is proper and acceptable social/moral behavior more than because we feel it in our hearts. So we find it easy to say the words...but hard to live up to them. That takes time.

Having experienced the "lip service" many, many times throughout our lives...we really only get a small amount of comfort from those initial words....a momentary lapse in our guilt/pain. And it is not until you can look the person you wronged in the eyes and see they hold no angst within them that you know you have truly been forgiven. It isn't until I see it in their eyes that I believe it. And that is when I forgive myself. When I know that their pain and anger is gone then I can let go of my pain and guilt.

To ask for forgiveness is easy...to honestly give it is the hardest thing a person has to do (depending on the severity of the offense). Because we all, even if only on a subconscious level, understand that there is more to the process of forgiveness than what happens initially. Most of the time I see those words being uttered "I forgive you" as just a sign that the other person cares enough for you to try. They are pretty much saying that..."I want to and I will try".


The hardest part of the whole 'forgiveness" process for me is to forgive someone who hasn't asked for it. That person who wronged you and would prefer to ignore what they did and move on instead of facing it and clearing the air. I have had to do that recently...it was hard to do. Even though I have mostly forgiven them...without the conversation and closure...I cannot do so all the way. But I'm trying and I guess that is all I can do.

These thoughts are only from my personal understanding/experience. Given from some very specific real life instances. I cannot say if this is how others have come to understand what forgiveness is...or if it is the right way/answer to your question.

Thanks,
blend57