Poverty Is A Disease

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Given my experiences in the trainee-infested marketing sector I have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about. It's a perfect world full of shiny happy and beautiful people. Kidding.
Worked out quite well to make a few of us ultra rich asshats with an insatiable lust for more, where there already is more than enough. Been there, done that as well to some degree. And this article in your OP is a mindblowing relevation with all the honesty we need to move the fck on, as a species.

Meritocracy had it's place until it lost my trust. That brainchild failed as a social experiment with regards to it's promise, the American Dream. That's what I was getting at. And now we see the biological effects of this ongoing class warfare, stealing from us the chance to partake in a fair game of real life chess. Thus our social contract is de facto null and void, which is why this is a very big issue.

Screw this system of abuse, exploitation and straight intoxication. This aint what we agreed upon, is it? Back to the drawing board we go..

a reply to: neo96

subjective value is still value.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

That fluctuates on a daily basis, and is relative to the amount in circulation at any given time.

originally posted by: Edumakated

If poverty were a disease then we would not have situations where poor Asians, West Indians, and others immigrate here and are able to open businesses and within a generation are producing Doctors, etc.

This here makes me wonder, because it is happening every day. Perhaps the culture of poverty does cause genetic changes, yet that culture is different everywhere. Otherwise, why would these immigrants' poverty-related stress manifest as the exact opposite (motivation) to what we see here in the U.S.? The liquor stores and mini-marts were all bought up by immigrants while everyone was at home waiting for their welfare checks.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Excellent OP! Really outstanding, BFFT

It seems to go hand-in-hand with what I've read about "Chronic Traumatic Stress Disorder" and "Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder." Neither of which is yet included in the DSM, but are being researched. The Complex PTSD was first applied to our returning veterans, and the adverse effects of being in a war zone 24/7 for extended periods, constantly in fight or flight mode. The Chronic TSD would apply to someone still living in constant and ongoing fight or flight mode, including inner city kids living in an urban war zone so to speak. Which makes me wonder if perhaps it's that combination -- survival is threatened constantly and there is absolutely no hope otherwise -- that results in the epigenetic effects.

In other words, I'm not sure it's just a lack of money, as has already been pointed out.

And, in fact, perhaps in combination with other factors, such as environmental contamination by estrogenic chemicals and other endocrine disrupters in our food and soil and water via pesticides and herbicides, as well as heavy metals from various industrial sources (and some would say vaccines), and psychoactive drugs circulating in our water supplies -- not to mention synthetic hormones prescribed for several medical purposes. I sometimes wonder if any of us are in our "right" minds, much less our optimal minds.

It also makes me revisit "affluenza," and how the same basic factors, but in different combinations, in different regions and even neighborhoods, could be affecting other demographics. Even within families, depending on personal preferences and habits. When I was researching the effects of lead poisoning and violence, I found out that Vitamin C helps remove lead from the body -- immediately and to a lesser extent after the fact. So if one kid in a family eats lots of oranges and drinks lots of OJ, but a sibling doesn't eat or drink either, the latter will be more susceptible to lead poisoning even with the same exposure. Or if it's soil that's contaminated, one kid might love to play with his trucks out in the dirt and thus exposing himself to that contamination, while another might prefer to play on a basketball court, thus avoiding that contamination.

Along with Buzzy Wigs' comments about the family dynamics, this has my mind spinning. Thanks for a great thread.

a reply to: underpass61

Perhaps the culture of poverty does cause genetic changes, yet that culture is different everywhere. Otherwise, why would these immigrants' poverty-related stress manifest as the exact opposite (motivation) to what we see here in the U.S.?

I was kinda sorta thinking along the same lines. I suggested it's not just a lack of money, but a lack of hope as well, especially when one's very safety and security are constantly threatened. When one has no hope, one has no motivation. It's really sad to think that impoverished folks from other countries would pin their hopes on the U.S.A. and be successful here, but those born here don't all have that same hope, and therefore no motivation.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Interesting and provocative post... and, arguably, one of the most important conversations we can have as folks, trying to be genuinely helpful to other folks.

I think we need to keep in mind, that much of the western scientific model takes things apart, into smaller "pieces" of study... and then zeroes in on them discreetly, followed by conclusions that discount all the other pieces of the whole the item of study is connected to.

There is a plausible explanation for the conclusions mentioned in your post, BFFT, that DON'T jibe with those conclusions.

It is a FACT, that the complexity of mind stuff and thought forms, directly impenge on parts of autonomic response in the brains of humans... triggering chemical response. Fear, especially, has a profound impact on the brain and body chemistry. Refelt fear literally "codes" the cells of the body.

Like anything in nature... repeated exposure to a stimuli of some kind will eventually result in adaptation. It will LITERALLY, change the wiring of the human organism over time... and the feelings and neuro-chemicals released when humans react to stimuli effect every single cell of the body.

Anyway... because of the perniciousness of the mentality of "I'm poor", I won't say it isn't a disease... but I have thought for many many years by repeated experiences with others and challenges in my own life, that poverty and "being poor", as a status and difficult to escape location in life is COMPLETLY a learned behavior.

As the oft used quote suggests... "If you think you can, or you think you can't... you're right."

We have a story and set of beliefs inside of us, much of which is a construct we have aquired since our birth. What we see, hear and feel after birth contributes to that story... and the beliefs of the story tellers around us, where we learn our own story (parents, family, friends) directly influence the story of our own beliefs about ourselves, about life, and about others and the world we are in.

Change the story... change the belief... and everything changes. Including being poor... including living in poverty, or whatever our story/belief is.

a reply to: dasman888

This is pretty much what the article references, although in passing. Its the part i zero'd in on, due to my own interests. But these stressors alter the methylation of DNA, which alters gene expression and creates hardwired feedback loops that are variant. The example used is the stress created by fight or flight creates a situation where methylation inhibits gene expression and causes you and your offspring to become more neurochemically adjusted to making decisions based on a fight or flight mental processing grid.

This would explain why poor people tend to struggle with impulse control and delayed gratification. But causation and correlation aren't always the same. So more research is needed. but it does dovetail well with what we know: painful, traumatic lessons are learned and then passed forward. Someoone mentioned animals who almost die from eating poisoned berries show a knowledge of this information that is innate for 2 generations.

I think of DNA as a song. Methylation is the tempo. You can be a swing song, a jazz song, a melancholy song, all by applying diferent tempo to the same music.

Anyway, this is an important part of the article, with not a lot of focus and mention.

a reply to: Boadicea

My brother in law served in Desert Storm. He's pretty messed up, but hides it well.

As i watched his struggles with his youngest, my neice, i notice that much of what she struggles with is what he struggles with. She has hardwired traits that more closely mirror someone who has lived in a warzone. But she's been raised as a normal middle class kid with two of the best people i know as parents.

Its not her upbrining. And behavioral issues don't really exist in either family that created her. She's an anomoly, and i wonder what the effect of her fathers PTSD is given what we are finding out.

It makes me wonder....could information like this be what makes men lay down arms forever? I can wish, right?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Years ago, while formally studying Chinese Medicine and acupuncture... I had an instructor who was fond of saying "...the body is the scene of the crime. Peoples experiences alter them at the cellular level."

It's certainly worth noting, (as in the case of your niece) that adaptations that create challenges can be somewhat "resolved" by engaging the same processes that caused them.

I have friends who have been in AA for years. By in AA, I mean IN AA. Very old timey hardcore behavior modification kinda AA. Awhile back I heard a story on the radio, talking about people with Obsessive Compulsive disorder and Agoraphobia who were extremely limited because of the ferocity of expression of their disorder.

This study involved study of the brains of phobics, with both "before and after" testing a treatment strategy.

The baseline scans showed noticeable differences in the physiology of the brains of phobics, compared to "normal" brains.

The treatment, consisted of a series of actions, which consistently moved folks out of their comfort zones over time. Working with these phobic folks, they had them go out the front door, and walk out to the front walk for a short time, and walk back inside. For a week.

The next week, they had them walk up to the sidewalk near the street, spend a little time, and walk back. The next week, they had them walk to the corner and back every day, and the following week, partway around the block and back... and the following weeks, walk all the way around the block.

Of course, they found a couple of things... walking to the corner and back had nowhere near the fear factor it did in the beginning... the fear of leaving the house, and going for a walk, had increasingly less impact on them, and lessened over time. Walking to the corner was almost inconsequential.

The OTHER thing they discovered... which was the focus of the piece, and impressive, is these little walks over time started changing their brain physiology back more resembling "normal" brains. These little fear facing actions, made their brains go back towards normal. At the time, I remember thinking of my friends in AA, from whom I had seen DRAMATIC changes in their lives and persons over time, based on making a habit of certain specific patterns of "right action".

There is nothing set in stone... with maybe the exception of certain scientists difficulties in having an open mind to challenging "what we know is so".

The other thing I was thinking, when reading about your bro in law and neice, is something else I am convinced of. We only see the physical boundaries of what makes up a person... I am certain there is a much larger sphere of influence around people... that is invisible in the normal vision spectrum.

I also believe all human beings... if not all life... has some kind of connections to a "whole thing".

Fascinating stuff. If more of us can leverage the dynamics of these things for the positive or for the benefit of our fellows, it would be a very good thing!

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Boadicea

My brother in law served in Desert Storm. He's pretty messed up, but hides it well.

As i watched his struggles with his youngest, my neice, i notice that much of what she struggles with is what he struggles with. She has hardwired traits that more closely mirror someone who has lived in a warzone. But she's been raised as a normal middle class kid with two of the best people i know as parents.

Its not her upbrining. And behavioral issues don't really exist in either family that created her. She's an anomoly, and i wonder what the effect of her fathers PTSD is given what we are finding out.

This sounds eerily like what my cousin and his wife have experienced. Both served in Desert Storm, met in Kuwait, and married a couple years later. She chose not to re-enlist, but he became career army and still serves. We haven't seen them for years, so what I know is from other family members, and one thing that stuck with me is that the Dad described the youngest as acting "shell-shocked." As a soldier who has served on the front lines and knows whereof he speaks, he would not use those words lightly. So I took note.

It's heartbreaking and it seems to be a pattern -- not simply coincidence.

It makes me wonder....could information like this be what makes men lay down arms forever? I can wish, right?

You sure can! And I'll be wishing right along with you!!!

Another point worth noting, BFFT...

There's a guy I have studied with, named Eben Pagan... SUPER smart dude, who studies human behavior and ways to make changes in life. This guy consumes science and the latest research, as well as the work of others, to effect change, like no one else I have ever seen.

One of his trainings was about money and wealth... and he points out something I had never heard articulated before. That behavior around money, is wired into our evolution already. Our ancestors primary focus was on eating, and being with their "tribe". They didn't eat 3 squares... they ate what they could... until it was gone... somewhat gorged, in fact... because it might be a couple/few days, or more, before they got to eat again. Everything was geared to "stocking up" on calories to last till the next opportunity of food.

Eat everything you can now... because the future supply is a total unknown. That was just a normal behavior.

Money, is the closest representative thing for non-hunter gatherers. We show up already wired to treat money like our ancestors treated food.

In fact... in order to NOT just spend everything we have trying to satiate our "appetites", requires a deliberate choice to do something different than our reptilian impulse tells us we need to do to survive.

Saving money, and having a strategy to pool and grow resources, is a behavior that has no evolutionary support whatsoever. Left to our own "stories", we just aren't wired to be "sensible" about money.

a reply to: dasman888

Change the story... change the belief... and everything changes. Including being poor... including living in poverty, or whatever our story/belief is.

Yep.

You got it. That is the solution. Narrative therapy. I appreciate your recognition of my post(s).

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Over the past 2 years the things I read in science journals is leading me away, towards the notion that poverty creates biological changes that make it almost impossible for humans to overcome poverty.

Sorry..I'm calling crap on that one.

In 8 out of 10 cases..poverty is a choice...made unknowingly by your parents...or you.

This whole thing is bananas...I just cant stand this reoccurring notion that somehow...your life...is a byproduct of chance...and that you are unable to make a difference to it.

I just dont believe that.

Yeah, it's a choice. Anyone can start a business to compete with Home Depot. You just have to have drive. If you imagine it anything is possible.

sorry pal.....all the drive in the world won't make customers buy your product. that's the cold reality

a reply to: dasman888

I agree with this.

I also think you can take similar views in other areas. Food, for example. What we eat today are enormous grains full of nutrition. What our ancestors ate were smaller grains with less nutrition. So spending a couple of hours picking small grains to eat became a very nice substitute for picking fleas from your neighbors. Thus, food became a bonding situation for humans. And thus, humans have trouble with 'Hand to mouth" habits like smoking, snacking, and nail biting. Its a behavior that is literally ancient in our genome.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

It's true, it is like a disease. A large part of it is our culture. We are taught to hate rich people, hate success, remove responsibility, and to be reserved to our fate as if we cannot change it.

The reality, is that anyone in the west with determination and "average" IQ can do whatever they want, and earn as much as they want. In the age of the internet, even children can create their own successful startup.

I believe that this is by design. We are taught to be negative by the boob tube. We learn that rich people are "lucky" or earned their wealth through evil means.

The world is filled with abundance. Anyone can "make it" if they have a good work ethic and ingenuity.

I grew up super poor, and then was placed in the CPS system. I have been homeless for fairly long stretches of time. I lived in some of the absolutely worst and most violent areas in the country. I have never had a leg up from anyone, and my entire 35 years have been spent with zero familial support. If things go south for me, I only have myself to rely on. I also happen to be a straight white male, which means that I also have no support from the system.

I have now been self employed for the last 12 years of my life and live a "normal" middle class lifestyle. It was definitely a struggle, and the hardest part was overcoming my limiting beliefs. Once you let those go, life becomes much easier.

I think that is one of the reasons that I hate the racism in this country. No, the color of my skin does not benefit me. No, minorities are not incapable of "making it." No, we do not need to treat minorities as if they are "less than" and need other people to step in and "save them." I find this mentality to be disrespectful and degrading.

What we DO need, is a cultural shift. We went from a country that took pride in hard work and self sustaining behavior, and now we overwhelmingly believe that someone or something else is keeping us from achieving our goals and dreams.

Or poor people could get jobs...

originally posted by: swedy13
Or poor people could get jobs...

You think it's just that easy, huh? Just like the "if you can't find a job there, move" people. WTH? Do you really think people who are struggling to survive don't want jobs? They don't want to move to find one?

That is preposterous. Obviously you have no idea what it's like to be poor and stuck.
*smh*

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I've lived in my car. I've made $200/wk for a couple years, doing fast food. Pretty sure I know. Being poor sucks for people who are trapped there.

I've also talked to plenty of homeless and transient people. A lot of them weren't poor. They were lazy and carefree or whatever. I've seen co workers spend their money on drugs and alcohol and gambling and business ideas and all manner of things.

People are poor because they don't work enough or don't get educated and improve their earning potential. A few because they are trapped.

Don't be naive...