Higher sodium intake associated with lower blood pressure. You read that right

originally posted by: katfish
a reply to: rickymouse

Many thanks! Good info!
My mother's side of the family all have/had high BP. Most of them ignored it or went the other route and did ultra low sodium. No real change in their BP either way.

I believe my high BP is due to tiny veins, intestines that have never been "normal", and propensity to worry. Since I don't care for salty foods per se, I use herb blends, or Hawaiian sea salt for flavor. BP still "high".

The BP drugs my relatives took inadvertently caused their deaths in many cases; falls, forgetfulness, exhaustion with inability to sleep. I was completely unable to function on the mildest BP drug. Not worth it.

Do you have what they call Rope veins, hard to draw blood out of? Low blood volume can do that. I have four genetic traits that make me excrete salt more than others. I have hereditary tachychardia, hypovolemia, and I have hypoglycemia. These are all related. When I was in excellent shape, my BP was 140/80 with a resting heart rate of 120. The beta blockers caused me a lot of varying bad side effects. It is nothing for my heart rate to be over two hundred when working. I don't even worry about my blood pressure unless the top goes over one ninety and the bottom goes over one twenty. My blood pressure varies greatly from laying to standing or sitting. That has to do with low blood volume. It is related to peeing out or sweating out all my salt. According to my genetics it is good that I pee out a lot of salt, evidently the person writing that doesn't know how it is to live with this condition. The major one is from my fathers side, and it is rare for Europeans supposedly, although how would they know, maybe people who have this genetics have had so many problems with doctors that they would never get their genetics done.

originally posted by: katfish
a reply to: rickymouse

YES!!!! THIS! THANK YOU! I am sensitive to alcohol anyway, and beer with pizza can knock me out at the table. (I had a bad stomach that docs took out, but never had decent stomach acid anyway. Food goes directly to small intestine now, but had the same issues when I had a stomach).

There are foods that literally make me loopy.

Glutamates increase Dopamine and people who cannot break down dopamine well can be effected more negatively by consuming too much. This would be variances in the COMT gene which makes an enzyme that breaks down dopamine. It means we make less of the enzyme that breaks dopamine and some other neurotransmitters down. Some people break dopamine down well and need more of it in the brain, but still, the glutamates can still negatively effect the bodies cells and cause insulin resistance if too many are consumed. There are a few different ways to calm people, sulfurs calm, so do asparagaines. so does asparagus and cooked spinach, which increases GABA. But spinach also contains some bad chemistry and too much asparagus is also not too good, but asparagus is definitely a happy buzz if you eat quite a bit. It mellows you right out.

Some people break down GABA too well too, and the same goes with Saratonin. I am glad I have the opposite problem, a little aged food makes me feel great, one beer is plenty for me to get in a good mood, the headache I get from drinking over three sucks. It was not a surprise at all when I had my genetics done and found the COMT gene made me not break down aged foods well. I actually looked for that and porphyria genes right away, figuring I must have those and I did.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: rickymouse

Much of what you say is pretty much what my nephrologist says. I have a low sodium co-morbidity with cancer, hospitalized in the ICU 3 times because it got so low. Initial treatment was 12 grams (yes) sodium chloride via tablet everyday and no more than 1 liter of fluid per day. Torture. Finally my kidney guy came along and while under ICU watch decided to try me on a diuretic which seemed counter intuitive to my other doctors saying I was flushing out too much salt. I wasn't flushing out enough fluid. I'm down to 6 grams of sodium and a 10 mg diuretic 2x a day and no fluid restriction as long as I don't go crazy.

I hate the weak feeling from being low on salt. One of the medicines they gave me for my Temporal lobe epilepsy was a sodium channel blocker. For a person who genetically pees out too much salt, that led to major complications, my teeth erupted and broke, and my feet turned all black from that one and I gained about thirty pounds in water weight, basically my cells were bloated. No more Valproic acid ever for me.

The neurologist did not know about my genetics so I can't blame her. She tried five different meds and they all had dire side effects. Breaking a total of sixteen teeth sucked, three in one tiny seizure while I slept. The thing is that the teeth started to push up, then when I ate the high one would break. That is what can happen when you are severely intolerant to meds. I needed thirteen crowns within three months, so instead of the insurance company spending over thirteen grand, I had them all pulled. I do not regret that, even now, my diet to control my epilepsy could have caused the same problem with my teeth. The thing is, I do not detox meds well, actually because of my genetics I could have taken a tenth of a dose, three days a week, and probably done all right. If you can't break it down it stays active longer. One head of cabbage in soups and maybe one bundle of asparagus a month while restricting tyramines and high sugar foods does fine. It does not go well with my hypoglycemia though, I get some events with low sugar sometimes.

When you pee out your salt, do you get bubbles in the toilet, lipidurea? Do you pee out sugar too? Do you have problems with hypoglycemia?

I've always believed that when it comes to medical knowledge like this, doctors and medical researchers are just doing guesswork - and I'm not saying that in a dismissive or ignorant manner. At the end of the day I will always believe in and trust in the opinion of doctors and medical professionals when it comes to my personal health; they are much more often correct than incorrect, but in regards to knowing the cause of ailments such as cancer, or conditions like high blood pressure or atherosclerosis, especially given such a large portion of the population over a long period, it's impossible to say for certain what the root cause is.

There might not even be a single root cause; there could be a susceptible portion of the general population in which several independent factors could in combination cause the condition of concern. But of course trying to collaborate that much unique data over such large population samples over a sufficient period of time to produce tangible results would be a monumental task. It's far easier to simply figure out that the majority of those profiles in a large-scale study consume alot of salt, and take an educated guess that excessive sodium intake was the single root cause of high blood pressure. I wouldn't call that line of reasoning wrong, but it is hardly the final answer.

My grandparents pretty much lived on a diet that would seemingly horrify medical professionals today. They drank whole milk, cooked almost all their food in lard and butter, put salt on everything, and never trimmed the fat off of any meat they ate - infact my grandfather loved fat, and would always eat what I had trimmed off of my steak and say I was wasting the best part of the meat! But they also lived a very active lifestyle and ate plenty of vegetables grown from their garden, and lived to the ripe old ages of 87 and 90! No low fat or reduced salt food in their pantries, ever.

And yet statistically speaking, my generation is going to have a lower lifespan than that of the previous generation, which is unprecedented, and we can't seem to figure out why, what with all of our processed food diets plastered with words like "gourmet" and "artisan" and sitting in a chair replying to messageboards for hours and hours.

Nope, no clue.

Here is an article from Mercola. I did a lot of research on salt and much of what I have researched is in agreement with this article. articles.mercola.com...

Salt actually can help us fight cancer, the cancer gobbles it up and leaves us weak with hyponatremia and we cannot wage war against it.

Society seems to be going the wrong way with salt, who is running this health scam that attacks salt. Someone who profits by it I suppose, look how much money hospitals make by giving sick people IVs with sodium Chloride in hospitals emergency rooms. Then after filling you up with salt water, they send you home and the doctors tell you to watch your salt on your next visit.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: seasonal
Another example of the accepted wisdom doled out by the most expensive medical system that the world has ever known is wrong. Lowering sodium intake does not lower blood pressure.

Perhaps, but sucking down the salt will fry your kidneys, no? Edema with concurrent nerve damage?
Imbalance will kill you.
So when an excess of salt kills you six different ways from Sunday, your blood pressure will be just wondrous!
Big whoop.

I didn't see the memo stating "Here's your license to inhale a slab of salt at each meal." For folks like myself who show the exact opposite of low sodium diet results expectations, it's basically vindication that we're not total medical freakzaoids exiting in Opposite Land. Low sodium just has negative effects on us. For others, it's vindication for the numbers that don't change at all. Hence, it's not the salt in their diet at fault after all.

Understood. *__-

a reply to: seasonal

Our bodies need aprox. 1g of salt per day to function normally and you can actually get that amount from fruits and veg without adding any table/sea salt. There are many studies that show reducing salt helps most people with hypertension (I stress most because we all react differently to specific diets/treatments/conditions). But healthy people don't need to change their habits if they work well, so I wouldn't personally recommned cutting salt for them.

Having said that, the study in your OP is flawed: first it was an observational study, not controlled, researchers relied on people telling the truth about what they ate. Second, the only way they got their 'sodium intake' data was with a urine test: their results was based on the levels of sodium found in the urine samples. This raised a few questions in my head:

What if those with lower sodium in the urine didn't actually consume less salt but had excretion problems and actually had elevated sodium levels in their blood? This could explain elevated systolic blood pressure but the study did not involve blood tests unfortunately.

What if those with the higher blood pressure ate less sodium because they were becoming hypertensive? This could show that their rising blood pressure changed their diets and not the other way round.

I also noticed in their graph that the participants with higher sodium in their urine already had a lower systolic than those who had lower sodium in their urine.

Great thread nonetheless which shows how scientists don't publish 'guesswork' but challenge other scientists results, which always is a good thing.

Anyone else think that this is a example of how the internet can become a dangerous place.

high sodium is one of the biggest factors contributing to hypertension.

Its a fact like smoking causes lung cancer or drinking too much booze will mess up your liver or that heroin is addictive. It just a fact. Yet in todays age of information, anyone can write anything they want and dress it up as fact. There could be some poor old sod who reads this and thinks "awsome i can go back on the salt", raises his bp by a few points and before you know it he is getting fed through a straw up his nose after a huge stroke. All because he read something on ATS about how salt is associated with lower BP and while he was it he also read about how saturated fat isn't all that bad either.

Just my thoughts on this but yeah i am not about to change my diet after reading this.

a reply to: katfish

Katfish, Wow, I could have written this post, except it was my father's side with the high BP and heart disease (Native American). I also have tiny veins, Lupus and Crohns overlap, and lifelong anxiety issues. I have tried every BP med on the market even at a "child's dose, the side effects are unbearable. I run about 150/90, Im only about ten pounds over what I should be, and I eat clean with no gluten. Im considering going vegan, but I worry about my already low B12. I have noticed that Rooibos tea lowers mine several points about an hour after drinking it.

Rickymouse, thank you for taking the time to relay such great information!

a reply to: rickymouse

I've always believed there is so much more to sodium intake than what we currently know and understand, but as stated its all dependent on individual chemistry. Where did you get your genetics tested? Is there a reliable national lab? Im in the Southeast. I have severe medication and supplement intolerance and issues that none of my specialists can quite figure out. I would love to know if I have genetic markers or mutations that may be causing some of these problems. Life can be quite hard when you never know what food, med, cosmetic or general substance will set off another reaction.

originally posted by: Serenity94
a reply to: rickymouse

I've always believed there is so much more to sodium intake than what we currently know and understand, but as stated its all dependent on individual chemistry. Where did you get your genetics tested? Is there a reliable national lab? Im in the Southeast. I have severe medication and supplement intolerance and issues that none of my specialists can quite figure out. I would love to know if I have genetic markers or mutations that may be causing some of these problems. Life can be quite hard when you never know what food, med, cosmetic or general substance will set off another reaction.

I just had my genetics tested at Ancestry. They have a pretty decent company that does their work. If they can't get some snps, they just say not found, not gathered means that they were not gathered.

We actually had my kids, the wife and I and two grandkids tested, also my son in law. Even my ex-wife did it. When looking at the snps for us, you can compare things, it is evident that they are correct when found. I downloaded the gene profile to livewello and for twenty bucks you get to use their gene apps as long as you want to. Because there are gaps that were not collected, there are some things I cannot know for sure but some things have enough collected snps to know they are a problem. I also did promethius, that was five bucks.

So, the ancestry cost ninety bucks, the livewello cost twenty, and the promethius cost five. so a hundred fifteen bucks a person that totaled about nine hundred twenty bucks for all of us. The wife has spent more than that on getting the ancestry research site for the last three years, she has got back many generations now and has contacted many of the people who are related to her. It isn't bad, I study the genetics part and she studies the relative part. Boy, I would hate to see what we would be paying if we had someone do all of this.

It takes a lot of research to do this, don't think any of this is going to give you a direct answer, dealing with epigenetics is not an easy task. Gene expression is related to diet, food chemistry can change the way genes are expressed. So one person will not get a disease while the other does, just by one of these persons consistantly eating a wrong food chemistry or one person always eating a needed companion food needed to metabolize something because of a deficiency in an enzyme. I have probably a thousand hours into studying just certain familiar genetics now that apply to mostly northern Europeans.

Lately, they have been coming up with more and more gene apps at livewello that need more ungathered snps than Ancestry DNA has, so I will be getting a more extensive one done, whole genome sequencing at about three hundred bucks just on me. I can evaluate better how diet is involved in gene expression if I have a better collection. Our epigenetics are formed by environmental factors, what our ancestors ate and where they lived determines how the body reacts to things. Even winter/summer being wider apart probably is recorded in our genes, because the body adapts to the loss and gain of green veggies, it conserves nitrogens more if you do not have them year round.

Within the year, I will be having the other DNA done, we have been trying to keep spending down, we need a roof this year and want to build up reserves again, spending our savings on more DNA testings is not high on the list of things we need to do.

With all my studying and the DNA information, I have been able to control some things better. I am not on any meds at sixty one, the wife has not needed any more added, actually she was able to cut back on some of her meds and the doctor was impressed. I am not saying it isn't work controling my epilepsy, tachychardia, hypoglycemia, and hypovolemia without meds, but the meds had a lot of side effects that were worse than what I experience. The problem is balancing this, controling temporal lobe epilepsy with diet means some restriction of sugars and carbs, which is bad for the hypoglycemia. But My feet are still on my legs and I am still alive, the neurologist watched me fall apart on the epilepsy meds. I almost lost both feet. Intolerance of All five classes of epilepsy drugs showed up in my genetics. The thing is, I may have been able to take a tenth of what I was given and done fine. Some of them did not break down and get excreted well, that is why I can control the epilepsy with diet where the foods contain chemistry of these meds. The thing is I have to use a revolving pattern of the medicine chemistry contained in the foods, if I try to control it with one, I get side effects. It took me almost seven years to perfect the diet to account for the epilepsy and hypoglycemia. I have porphyria genes also that cause problems if I consume things wrong, my blood volume goes down too low with too much sulfur foods.

It is worth the hundred thirty bucks to get that done, it is about fifteen bucks higher now for ancestry, but there is a sale going on now. 23 and me does this too, they have a good lab that does theirs too. Utah has a lot of those labs.

Remember, you will have to ask your relatives about family history to evaluate these things correctly and also the diets of your relatives, both the ones who were healthy and those who were sick. I can not eat a lot of raw broccoli or any cruciferous veggi.

a reply to: rickymouse

The problem is balancing this, controling temporal lobe epilepsy with diet means some restriction of sugars and carbs, which is bad for the hypoglycemia.

Don't know if you're aware of the fact that someone adapted to ketone bodies have a lowered threshold for the onset of hypoglycemia. Just being low carb is not sufficient. If you're interested I can dig my docs for the ref. paper stating this.

originally posted by: Cofactor
a reply to: rickymouse

The problem is balancing this, controling temporal lobe epilepsy with diet means some restriction of sugars and carbs, which is bad for the hypoglycemia.

Don't know if you're aware of the fact that someone adapted to ketone bodies have a lowered threshold for the onset of hypoglycemia. Just being low carb is not sufficient. If you're interested I can dig my docs for the ref. paper stating this.

I actually use more fats as part of my treatment. I tried a ketone diet but I had too much sticky poop with that and I have major problems. I have always had a problem with high fats in the diet. It does work though. I found out quick that you need a lot of salt to process fats to get energy, that is why there is salt in so many fatty foods. Sugar will cause a person to retain salt instead of secreting it. So I do need some sugar or carbs or I pee out all my salt.

Add hyponatremia to the list above of hereditary conditions I have, I always wondered why my father and uncles ate so much salt. I pee it out.

The tachychardia, 120 BPM just sitting here typing, the hypovolemia, and the hyponatremia and hypoglycemia are all related. You see, I have low blood volume, so there is less blood flowing through my veins and because of that I need a little higher sugar level to be normal. About one twenty is about normal for me on sugar, any less than ninety and I have a hypoglycemia event. but now it is the spinny head ones, dialating the veins and arteries by nitrous oxide creation causes my BP to drop quickly, especially to the head..

Older people often get hypovolemia, then their sugar level needs to be a little higher in the blood or they crash. When they crash, the body switches over to burning ketones and releases a Nitrous oxide chemistry that dialates the blood vessels, raises heart beat, then with the low blood in the body, the blood to the head is compromised. Chewing tobacco will give old people the spins by the same method as I talking about, low blood volume is responsible for a lot of falls.. It took me a lot of research to figure out what was happening, the solution, I have hypoglycemia hereditarily, I need not to trigger a lot of insulin creation. I need to avoid high sweets and eat more proteins. I also need to avoid high nitrogen foods, sodium nitrate in lunchmeat can trigger the spins if I eat a lot, but lettuce and tomatoes seem to be the thing I really need to avoid in excess. I really love veggies, but I have to watch I do not eat much. I do not like those spells where I cannot walk. I have the testers to see what caused these events when they happened, right as they happened I tested my sugar and I tested my BP. I made it to the living room and kitchen counter, both places had a sugar and bp meter.

Because of my tachychardia and hypovolemia, I have higher blood pressure normally and it is way higher standing or sitting than laying down. In the best shape I was in, years ago, it was one forty over eighty. Now it is about one forty over ninety a lot, but standing it is one eighty over ninety five sometimes. I often wondered why it varies from day to day. I would rather have low blood volume than be anemic though, I do not like the constant dizzy feeling from being anemic. I just don't make blood cells fast enough, but my genetics also shows my blood cells are capable of lasting a lot longer than normal. As long as I don't eat much sulfur, sulfur seems to kill them and that is further lowering my blood volume. The best way of controlling my epilepsy by far is with sulfur foods like cabbage and Asparagus. Onions and garlic also work, but they are harder on the blood.

I do not consider these things diseases, they are just inconveniences. All of the problems other than epilepsy I have been living with since as long as I can remember, they got more pronounced after puberty, they showed their fangs.

My dad and uncle had tachychardia, my oldest daughter has it too. I don't know about the grandkids yet, I suppose some day maybe. My uncles who did not have rapid heart rate had other problems with their hearts. But all my uncles lived to be pretty old.

a reply to: rickymouse

I found out quick that you need a lot of salt to process fats to get energy,

Yes this diet need an increased consumption of sodium and potassium, preferably in a specific ratio.

I tried a ketone diet but I had too much sticky poop

It may be caused by something else. Sometime, drastic change in diet allow other problems to show up. In this diet, the fecal matter volume is reduced and it have practically no odor. One important thing is what kind of fat you are consuming? One must be prudent with fat above C12. I recommend using short chain saturated fat, these fats are carried through the portal circulation back to the liver -- not the lymph! Does the fecal matter you produced, floated on water and looked greasy or falled to the bottom? In our case, these diet experiments have revealed TONS of other unrelated digestion and metabolic problems that needed to be addressed individually.

Sugar will cause a person to retain salt instead of secreting it. So I do need some sugar or carbs or I pee out all my salt.

The wife is the expert with practical matter related to such diet, will talk to her tomorrow. But two things for sure, you need lots of water and lots of Na and K (and other mineral and vitamin). She definitely would approve the OP saying that lack of Na is very bad.

a reply to: seasonal

This isn't news mate. We already know it. This is why sodium is added to blood pressure meds, it safely increases their effectiveness.

a reply to: rickymouse
Spoke with the wife, she agree that keto diet need lot of water, Na and K (ratio 1:2). She advise the usual bone broth.

Now it is about one forty over ninety a lot, but standing it is one eighty over ninety five sometimes.

Isolated systolic hypertension is a big problem and you seem well aware that your priorities shall goes there. Your thyroid is going well? And remember to watch out the white coat effect.

originally posted by: Cofactor
a reply to: rickymouse
Spoke with the wife, she agree that keto diet need lot of water, Na and K (ratio 1:2). She advise the usual bone broth.

Now it is about one forty over ninety a lot, but standing it is one eighty over ninety five sometimes.

Isolated systolic hypertension is a big problem and you seem well aware that your priorities shall goes there. Your thyroid is going well? And remember to watch out the white coat effect.

Actually, I use a lot of bone broth in my diet now, I use cartilaginous bones but also use regular marrow bones. I get a half a cow every year and wind up buying about twenty extra pounds of soup bones every year. Also, I debone our chicken and boil the chicken bones for many hours to make a broth. Cartilage contains collagen and it actually is concentrated moderating chemistry. All meats contain collagen with the rib roasts of beef having a high amount in the meat, but they are the expensive cut. I would rather make soup out of the soup bone, too much meat and my gout acts up. It doesn't do that with soup bones for some reason, the collagen is better for that.

My thyroid does alright, my methyl cycle is messed up, but methyl b12 takes care of that. I have a problem with eating a few kinds of cyanide, the cyanocobalamin negatively effects me if I take it more than twice a week and I cannot eat cranberries, they almost seem like they cause a chokecherry drying effect after half an hour, I can't stop drinking water and it does not quench my thirst. Most berries do not do that to me even though they contain cyanates. just cranberries that I know of.....and of course chokecherries.

The methyl cycle and thyroid cycle need to be balanced and also the thyroid needs to be balanced with the adrenal glands. I still need to do some personal testing to check what symptoms unbalancing them does, I have had them imbalanced before, but was not paying attention to the effect of doing them. I don't mind testing some things on myself, better than the doctors experimenting on me and me getting severe side effects and being stuck into taking the pills till they figured that they were causing major problems. Seeing the doctors only one day a month or two when on these meds and only for fifteen minutes makes it hard for them to comprehend things, they cannot see what is happening inside of you. You do not have time to explain them correctly and are afraid the doctor will think you are a hypochondriac unless you are sure the med is what is causing the problem. I used to believe I was defective because I could not take their meds they were prescribing that were destroying my organs and hampering my ability to think correctly.

a reply to: rickymouse

too much meat and my gout acts up.

Try malic acid supplement or src like apple (the sourer, the better), I still eat tons of meat and gout is no longer a problem.

originally posted by: Cofactor
a reply to: rickymouse

too much meat and my gout acts up.

Try malic acid supplement or src like apple (the sourer, the better), I still eat tons of meat and gout is no longer a problem.

Good apple cider vinegar has malic acid in it, I take about a tablespoon in some water with a little sugar in it once in a while. That combination gets rid of my popcorn headaches, I used to think it was salt, but actually I think it is the high amount of various methyl compounds in it. I get them even if there is no salt. So salt isn't the issue. Pickle juice seems to work too, but only about one ounce is needed and it is not so fast as the apple cider vinegar.

If you mix methyl and nitrogen compounds in the blood, including coffee and cigarettes together, they boost blood amonia levels. Benzoic acid or sodium benzoate taken by mouth will convert the Ammonia to uric acid but you need to stimulate urination, so either coffee or alcohol has to be consumed to trigger urination. Cinnamon has a benzoic acid in it, it is metabolized instantly to benzoic acid. Tomatoes and oranges have benzoic acid and root beer contains sodium benzoate in it which gives it it's tang. Identifying to find medicines is what I do a lot of, medicines used to treat diseases are contained in many foods. The thing is, the right medicine needs to be consumed at the right time, eating a cinnamon roll, which has apples (malic acid) yeast (has chemicals we need), and sugar (an osmolyte to bring the medicine into cells) and you have a medicine to fight gout and help to convert the acids that cause acidosis to something we can excrete, uric acid or urate. But you need the coffee, it contains the methyl group but most important it contains the diuretic.

With a little tweeking of knowledge to fit personal needs, gout medicines are not needed. With gout there are many ways to correct the problems with it, stimulating an enzyme is necessary, or actually forcing a reaction with the right ingredients in the diet can accomplish that.

What does your wife do that she knows about this stuff?

The white coat effect with blood pressure comes from getting frustrated because the nurse taking my BP doesn't understand about hereditary Tachychardia, in fact usually only specialists know about my condition. Doctors just try to give pills then send me to a specialist, it has been documented at least five times that I have it yet the doctors just keep sending me for stress tests to see if I still have it. I don't think they understand it, it is an inconvenience to me, I have had it all my life, I just had to compensate so I would not get AFIB attacks, when my heart rate goes over two thirty it starts to bounce around a lot, hitting double beats. 220 isn't a problem for me, it is normal to go over two hundred when I work.

My tachychardia and low blood volume which causes it hasn't killed me yet, the stress of worrying is the worst thing, I try not to let things bother me and try to avoid conflicts. My kids in their thirties not listening to me and making the same mistakes we made is stressful. I suppose I was spending too much back then too, but we were building a home and doing the work ourselves, not hiring others to do it.

a reply to: rickymouse

Good apple cider vinegar has malic acid in it, I take about a tablespoon in some water

There is probably a minute amount of malic acid in this. I use to take a couple caps of 800mg malic acid for a couple of days, then goes back to 1x 800mg each days. This is a chelator, so extended high dosage will deplete you of mineral, not just uric acid deposit. That is if you can tolerate it, combined with HCA (Garcinia cambogia) have given me chemical colitis in the past.

I'm not familiar with benzoic acid and would be worry of it since it is based on the aromatic and reactive benzene ring, and it is a preservative. We have many problem with food preservative.