schools must allow for minority students to speak in ebonics

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: crazyewok

Plus asca teacher in the real world, I have neither the time, engery or money to learn a dozen diffrent languages.

I hope you pull them up on their spelling, even when they aren't typing in a web browser which most likely even has a built in spell checker.

FFS.

I am typing of a phone. My fat fingers mash the keys ok?

Your post adds nothing relevant

It adds a lot that's relevant. You are so quick to condemn others for their use of language but don't take that much care of it yourself.

Now, it's strange, maybe someone else had a very similar user name to you because I could swear I remember a user with the name of crazyewok bemoaning that fact that as a successful business person they were sick of getting sent job applications where the spelling and grammar was not to their standard. It was pointed out in that thread that given the posters poor spelling they were acting a little bit like a pot having a go at a kettle. Strange though, that person with an incredibly similar name said this was due to their dyslexia.

If by any chance that was you, congratulations and respect for going from being a business person to a qualified teacher in such a short time, unless of course you were previously a teacher and for some reason stopped being one for a while.

Anyhow, as Kali pointed out way back in this thread, the article you linked to in the OP is a sensationalist one (clue: very few if any respectable journals describe people as 'snowflakes') that skewed the real suggestion that people should be able to use slang and other cultural terminology in their creative writing.

You must have missed that, what with being so outraged. By they way, what is FFS if not slang? Would you like me to introduce you to Mr Kettle?

originally posted by: sapien82

If a teacher can reach one child who feels isolated because they cant connect if they arent native english speakers and speaking to them in their language then surely that's the point right .

But you cant do that at the expense of the other children in the class.

If I had a spanish student and I started talking in spanish, then I loss the attention of 29 other students.

originally posted by: sapien82You said you dont have the time, energy or money etc, what does that say about teachers who are unwilling to learn themselves , every day being a school day right ?
I think it says alot about our education system if we are unwilling to support the minority of kids who may learn differently than others

I work from 7am to 7 pm most days and 4-6 hours on a Saturday.

7am -8:30 is spent getting my equipment prepared. 8:30 - 3:00pm teaching. 3pm to 4pm in BS meetings with management. 4pm to 5 pm chasing up phone calls to parents. 5pm to 7pm planning for next day classes and data entry. Saturday 9am - 3pm marking.

So no I dont have the time or energy to learn a new language. O wait I am learning spanish. But 1 extra language is not good enough i am guessing?

Am i meant to forgo meals? Cut off my family? Stop sleeping?

Teachers are already leaving the profession in the UK at record numbers due to stress and burn out and yiu want to add MORE responsibility on their backs?

a reply to: uncommitted

Do as I say not as I do children !

I jest , but uncommitted has a point

why condemn others in their use of language "ebonics" in the day to day when you yourself cannot be arsed to type properly , regardless of using a phone, you'd chin your students if they don't this in an essay about rocket science wouldn't you?

On that note, what do you think of one generation reducing a language that took hundreds of years to develop into txt spk!
I see a lot of adults do it as well .

I'm not poking fun at you but it does come across hypocritical of you.

Again this backs up my point its nothing but intellectual superiority

Why cant a person write an essay on rocket science in ebonics, so long as its understood ? because it doesnt meet the standards ? of who ? society ?
how did we get these standards as true brit pointed out , the class system ?
the rich were the only ones who afforded the ability to learn as everyone else was too busy toiling in the fields supporting the empire!

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: crazyewok

Plus asca teacher in the real world, I have neither the time, engery or money to learn a dozen diffrent languages.

I hope you pull them up on their spelling, even when they aren't typing in a web browser which most likely even has a built in spell checker.

FFS.

I am typing of a phone. My fat fingers mash the keys ok?

Your post adds nothing relevant

It adds a lot that's relevant. You are so quick to condemn others for their use of language but don't take that much care of it yourself.

Now, it's strange, maybe someone else had a very similar user name to you because I could swear I remember a user with the name of crazyewok bemoaning that fact that as a successful business person they were sick of getting sent job applications where the spelling and grammar was not to their standard. It was pointed out in that thread that given the posters poor spelling they were acting a little bit like a pot having a go at a kettle. Strange though, that person with an incredibly similar name said this was due to their dyslexia.

If by any chance that was you, congratulations and respect for going from being a business person to a qualified teacher in such a short time, unless of course you were previously a teacher and for some reason stopped being one for a while.

Anyhow, as Kali pointed out way back in this thread, the article you linked to in the OP is a sensationalist one (clue: very few if any respectable journals describe people as 'snowflakes') that skewed the real suggestion that people should be able to use slang and other cultural terminology in their creative writing.

You must have missed that, what with being so outraged. By they way, what is FFS if not slang? Would you like me to introduce you to Mr Kettle?

And it comes down to setting.

What, how i type and the effort I type is vastly diffrent between a conspiracy nutjob forum and how I write in CV's and at work.

Its a case of appropriate application of language to the setting.

And yes its partly down to dyslexia as well but the spell check catchs most of that, on my phone though I go generally have problems with touch pad buttons.

a reply to: sapien82

We have, technically, got a language just like that. Its called mathematics.

Unfortunately, mathematics cannot transmit emotion, only hard data, it has only the nuances permitted by the palette of numbers, and as a tool for communication of non-numerical concepts, it is as flawed as the day is long. It also has the issue of being impenetrable to a greater percentage of people, than the English language is.

As for whether we regard English as this internationally recognised bridging point between other languages, as a matter of ego... NO, no we do not regard it as a unifying force because of ego. The simple fact of the matter is that more people who have a second language, have English as their second language, than any other language found on the face of Earth, precisely because it is both versatile enough to be used in science and technology without miscommunication being too common to make it effective, and is broadly read, written and spoken to a degree that other language simply are not. Its a matter of statistical fact, not whimsy and mindless ego.

a reply to: crazyewok


your response just tells me that the system itself is flawed and you spend far too much time with red tape than actually engaging with children and teaching !

I'm not having a dig at you personally about your teaching ability or your desire to learn not at all
i'm just saying that it seems things could and should change drastically.

Why is it a detriment to the others to hear you speak to one child in spannish, wouldnt the other children be interested to learn what you said , children are curious by nature and that could inspire them to learn because they want in on what you are talking about, how can learning anything new be bad so long as the message is positive.

Please don't take my comments as offensive as I don't mean to offend , its just the way I communicate , don't blame me I'm Scottish

hahaha

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: uncommitted

Do as I say not as I do children !

I jest , but uncommitted has a point

why condemn others in their use of language "ebonics" in the day to day when you yourself cannot be arsed to type properly , regardless of using a phone, you'd chin your students if they don't this in an essay about rocket science wouldn't you?

Its about setting.

Children can talk and write in ebonics as much as they like out side of a class room.

How I type and talk in class is diffrent to outside on a Internet forum.

originally posted by: sapien82 that note, what do you think of one generation reducing a language that took hundreds of years to develop into txt spk!
I see a lot of adults do it as well .

Long as its not done in a class room I do not care.

originally posted by: sapien82Why cant a person write an essay on rocket science in ebonics, so long as its understood ? because it doesnt meet the standards ? of who ? society ?
how did we get these standards as true brit pointed out , the class system ?
the rich were the only ones who afforded the ability to learn as everyone else was too busy toiling in the fields supporting the empire!

I never made the rules and I can not change them, they are what they are.

Test papers and essay papers are marked by the exam board in standard English.

Scientific papers are written and published in standard English.

That is how it is.

a reply to: crazyewok
It comes down to practising what you preach or run the risk of being called a hypocrite really, but each to their own.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: crazyewok


your response just tells me that the system itself is flawed and you spend far too much time with red tape than actually engaging with children and teaching !

I'm not having a dig at you personally about your teaching ability or your desire to learn not at all
i'm just saying that it seems things could and should change drastically.

No argument from me here. Nor would you get a argument from any teacher I know on that.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: crazyewokWhy is it a detriment to the others to hear you speak to one child in spannish, wouldnt the other children be interested to learn what you said , children are curious by nature and that could inspire them to learn because they want in on what you are talking about, how can learning anything new be bad so long as the message is positive.

In a ideal world yes. And year 7, maybe 8's it might work or a top set.

But to be frank most teenagers have the attention span of a secound and the memories of a gold fish. You have to be very clear and direct and be careful not to go off on tangents otherwise you can lose them very quickly.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: crazyewok
It comes down to practising what you preach or run the risk of being called a hypocrite really, but each to their own.

To be frank, I dont care if people on a random Internet forum call me a hypocrite.

a reply to: crazyewok

So dont bother challenging it when it doesnt work , just go with the flow , as a teacher surely you and other teachers see these flaws in our education system , isnt there a system where you provide feedback to show that the current education policy is flawed , or are you happy just rowing instead of rocking the boat ?

once again we are back to government level and education system being designed a specific way , by the empire and evolving over time.

True Brit

has anyone ever found a mathematical expression for love , that would be interesting
the universe is numbers surely maths can explain emotion, but not convey it unless of course your a mathematician and can see from the numbers your looking at that it says " I love you" haha

sorry my brain is a bit of a chaotic mess , I tend not to form absolute thoughts and instead spew forth everything in hopes that the point im trying to make comes out and can be picked up by others .
So apologies

hope you are all enjoying the nice weather

ewok I was typing this before you posted your response so some of this will be in response to your previous notes


All I can say is that I appreciate what teachers do , it's a tough job under the circumstances, as a government employee myself I know what its like to be at the bottom of the lowest paid , and I have taken strike action on numerous occasions to support our teachers through my union as we share one I believe PCS !
I see that you dont have a lot of room at the bargaining table when it comes to influencing the outcomes on the policy level
so I can see why my points wont really make much sense when you are effectively powerless to change the system

sorry #stem

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: crazyewok

So dont bother challenging it when it doesnt work , just go with the flow , as a teacher surely you and other teachers see these flaws in our education system , isnt there a system where you provide feedback to show that the current education policy is flawed , or are you happy just rowing instead of rocking the boat ?

Our system to provide feedback is the same as everyone else, write a letter to a MP that gets passed on to the Secretary of education who then bins it.

a reply to: sapien82

Unfortunately sapien82, the problem you outlined with the mathematical expression of non-numerical concepts, like love, anger, sorrow, joy, make it utterly useless as a tool for communication, save for communication of things which have a solid value, a weight, a width, length, depth, a cost, something that requires the attachment of a numerical value. Love does not, meaning that it cannot ever be the case that mathematics replaces written language as we understand it. Its great for communication of scientific ideas, mathematical principles, and the like, which is why we would use it and some other methods, were we to get to the stage of first contact with an alien species.

But its only a very, VERY rare few who understand mathematics well enough to hide meaning otherwise inside it, and even then, some other language would have to be agreed upon by correspondents, in order that the other information, could be encoded from that language, into numerical form.

It is also worth pointing out the following:

Verbal communication may be only small percentage of the communication we take part in face to face, but it is still a vital one. Being able to communicate in a clear and concise manner, even helps when one has the advantage of using ones body language to back it up. But without any capacity to talk to one another, we would be left standing there, posing at one another, silently, trying to work out if this hip position means the person with whom we are communicating wants to get to know us better, or whether they are merely getting ready to punch us in the skull.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Im really interested in language especially communicating with others , so its cool to find out more about language in general.
Maths baffles me when it gets to complex expressions.
It's really interesting to see how language was developed and how our species has managed to adapt and change our vocal expression.

It's funny that you bring this point up and its where the internet fails in its ability to allow us to communicate globally , we cant tell the meaning and intent solely from words, and its where diplomacy and communication fail because you cant tell if im angry or happy when writing this solely based on my language. Unless I go all out to convey that specifically
so the tone and intent are often lost and this is where many arguments ensue and opinions are not expressed and received correctly, because you cant see me smiling at you when I reply to let you know what Im saying is lighthearted and not so serious.

It's a bit out there but Terrence Mckenna does a really good session at Eselen about language and human communication and with aliens especially , its really quite interesting if you care to listen , its on youtube on Deus Ex Mckenna channel

I think its a 4 hour long session but goes in depth into human language systems , theories on how human vocalisation evolved.

Some really good ideas in there. especially when we have more words to describe our world around us than words to describe how we feel . I think there are millions of words for describing plants but only 12 words to cover our human emotions.

Thanks for your thoughts both of you

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: crazyewok
It comes down to practising what you preach or run the risk of being called a hypocrite really, but each to their own.

To be frank, I dont care if people on a random Internet forum call me a hypocrite.

That's fine by me, you won't mind if I say you are using a very right wing slanted web site as your source which takes the actual suggestion put forward and adds a spin to it that would make even the Daily Mail blush and acting so outraged about it as a basis to get on your own high horse, yet use slang and bad spelling while talking about the lack of some peoples ability to correctly use the English language. I can't think of any other word than hypocrite. I guess it would be interesting to share this thread with your 'pupils' as an educational exercise, but then again, possibly some of them have already posted on it.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Ive seen several in here make it about race. Like when they say thugs or drug dealers.

This is a bandwagon logical fallacy--just become some others on here resort to ignorant, race-card debate tactics doesn't mean that it's justified for you to do it as well.

Is ebonics only a black thing??? No, For one thing, not all African Americans speak Ebonics, and not all Ebonics speakers are African American.

While the latter point in this quote is valid, the former point that it's not a "black thing" is woefully wrong. In fact, let's look at what the
Linguistic Society of America says about ebonics:

At its most literal level, Ebonics simply means 'black speech' (a blend of the words ebony 'black' and phonics 'sounds'). The term was created in 1973 by a group of black scholars who disliked the negative connotations of terms like 'Nonstandard Negro English' that had been coined in the 1960s when the first modern large-scale linguistic studies of African American speech-communities began. However, the term Ebonics never caught on among linguists, much less among the general public. That all changed with the 'Ebonics' controversy of December 1996 when the Oakland (CA) School Board recognized it as the 'primary' language of its majority African American students and resolved to take it into account in teaching them standard or academic English.

Most linguists refer to the distinctive speech of African Americans as 'Black English' or African American English (AAE) or, if they want to emphasize that this doesn't include the standard English usage of African Americans, as 'African American Vernacular English' (AAVE). In theory, scholars who prefer the term Ebonics (or alternatives like African American language) wish to highlight the African roots of African American speech and its connections with languages spoken elsewhere in the Black Diaspora, e.g. Jamaica or Nigeria. But in practice, AAVE and Ebonics essentially refer to the same sets of speech forms. Here, we will use 'Ebonics' without ideological or theoretical qualification, preferring it to AAVE and other alternatives simply because it is the most widely-known public term right now.

So, as you can plainly see, spelled out by an organization dedicated to studying linguistics, ebonics is precisely a "black thing," even if it has bled into other races. Even so, I prefer to call it a cultural thing, because culture doesn't necessarily confine itself to skin color, as you rightly pointed out.

I mean, you even go on to equate the term "ebonics" correctly to "black English," which is an antiquated way to describe it, but synonymous nonetheless when describing the foundation of the dialect along with the vast majority of people who use ebonics in their everyday speech.

At present, however, it appears that few teachers are prepared to teach students about language variation or even to respond to evidence of it in ways that support students' language development and academic achievement. Then testing we should account for syntactic contrasts among varieties of English to psychometric constructs, such as basic word lists that are incorrectly assumed to be understood across social groups; and to testing conditions that may have different meanings for different groups.

Schools are handed down guidelines/curriculums from which they must teach their students. They also have a tendency to teach for the tests, meaning how and what they teach is generally a copy of what is on a test and based off of the verbiage/terms used on the tests.

It is unrealistic to say that all tests to should take into account every dialect or language spoken by students when all of the students are taught in a way that is mimicked on the tests.

a reply to: crazyewok

LOL, you have summed it up perfectly.

a reply to: dragonridr

You really have a superiority complex don't you, first you speak for the group and then you make digs at people IQ yet fail to write in a grammatically incorrect manner. Me I don't give a crap as I don't claim superiority but you know what is worse here apart from calling people racist because they mention drug dealers even though NO ONE mentioned race (the old leftie fall back when you have no argument) but you don't seem to see what the point is here. You want a teacher to deliberately introduce a tragically incorrect way to learn ON TOP of a standard curriculum, and yet it would have to be on top because of teacher shortages. And why, to help the few who in most cases cannot be bothered.

Do you know what an alternative provision school is, come on a super clever person like you knows every thing. Ok, its a UK type of school where children that have problems at school, this is normally in two ways, the bullies and the bullied so you get the kids who want to learn with the kids who can't be bothered to learn and disrupt the class. Now some bright spark assumed this would be a good idea for both types in the same school environment. Now I witnessed this because my daughter was placed there for a few weeks after being in hospital with anorexia. Now she's a super bright girl as were some of the other people but they were taught with the same cretins who just wanted to smoke weed, smash stuff and basically not attend school. It was an utter disaster because not only was my daughter assaulted by the thug element (and before you scream racist it was mixed colours of youth involved) but the environment was centred around trying to get the thugs to learn, the bent over backwards for these youth but the losers were the bullied kids who could not learn in that environment.

So using Ebonics to teach these people would not only be a work load that is already too much for the teacher but also pretty much ethically against the way of teaching English and to round it off, it would almost certainly also be a complete waster of time on these youth.

I prefer the Star Trek Spock analogy re the needs of the many here, let the mass who want the knowledge get it and offer the unwilling a chance but not by compromising what is going on CORRECTLY for the majority.

Ebonics will not impart a willingness to learn, it just dilutes the ability to teach.

I keep reading about 'racist' on this thread and a point at me for using the words drug dealers in an Ebonics based thread. I never said anything about the race of them but to clarify, main gang here are indeed mostly dark skinned, being from Somalia, British born Black but ALSO Asian, White and a couple of Chinese guys. I didn't mention race to deliberately try and avoid the people that just so love to scream racist yet there they were, just busting at the gut to scream racist when its THEM who stereo typed them.

I'd imagine the actual source material and the wishing to implement it has more to do with race than any of us...

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Nice reply to Dragonridr, nice smackdown and may I say a well judged reply..