Identifying the roots of Christianity.

It is commonly thought that Christianity diverged from Judiasm but there are many indicators that question that belief. Perhaps the most obvious is that Judiasm itself does not believe in spiritual baptism by water (Tvilah is moreso clensing). So both John the baptist and Jesus were practicing a tradition foreign to Judiasm.

Given Jesus was a relative of John the Baptist according to Luke 1:67-79. (Elizabeth was the wife of Zachariah, mother of John the Baptist and cousin of Mary who was the mother of Jesus) its likely that Jesus was brought up under the same belief system that John the Baptist and his father Zachariah practised, which was most likely Mandaeanism. A religion of pacifism that accepts Adam, Abel, Seth, Enos, Noah, Shem, Arambut but rejects the teachings of Abraham and Moses.

Baptism in Mandaeanism takes place on Sundays, consists of a threefold complete immersion in the white sacral robe, a threefold signing of the forehead with water, a threefold draught of water and the crowning with a myrtle wreath. Followed on the bank of the river with the anointing of the forehead with oil, a simple communion of bread and water, and the handshake of truth.

The Mandaeans are taught to love their neighbours. Their worldview stamped by gnostic dualism, a world of light and a world of darkness that exist in mutual hostility. The World of Light is a world of goodness and truth and eternity without death. The World of Darkness is a similar in construction to the World of Light, but is full of evil and falsehood.

Mandaean history tells that the persecution of their community (death of John the baptist etc) in Jerusalem caused them to flee into eastern territories. Mandaean literature includes the Book of John (drasha dyahya) supposedly authored by John the Baptist that speaks of Jesus as a desciple of John's.

Its possible that Jesus tried to influence the Jews with Mandaeanism but was rejected by their uncompromising adherence to Abraham and Moses. (John 8:59)... "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Mandaean text thought to be written 300AD rejects Jesus as the Jewish-Roman Christ or as the son of GOD because their religion only accepts the one true GOD. However that feeling might be a reflection of the Roman Christ (paulism) rather than the man himself.

Link for more info about Mandaeanism

Interesting. I just look at what Jesus was teaching and I can tell it did not fit the Jewish religion of the time, it was a whole new religion. The early Christians that followed Jesus's teachings did not like to fight, the Jewish people would wage war a lot. I figured Jesus studied somewhere else with another culture. I was thinking possibly with the monks.

Christianity and Judism are way different. One thing to note, Christianity went astray for a long time. It is getting somewhat better, but is losing members.

a reply to: glend

Paul's Perversion of the Teachings of His Master Jesus Christ in Forming the Church in Rome Sealed the Fate of a Women's Roll in Early Christianity . To this Day , the Catholic Church in Rome has Continued the Suppression and the Subjugation of Women Of the Faith Around the World , which is a Direct Contradiction to the Teachings of Jesus Before the Censorship of the New Testament was Conceived .

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: glend

Paul's Perversion of the Teachings of His Master Jesus Christ in Forming the Church in Rome Sealed the Fate of a Women's Roll in Early Christianity . To this Day , the Catholic Church in Rome has Continued the Suppression and the Subjugation of Women Of the Faith Around the World , which is a Direct Contradiction to the Teachings of Jesus Before the Censorship of the New Testament was Conceived .

Catholicism is man made tradition similar to that of the sadducees and pharisees.

The perversion of the RCC and the 70 million martyrs of Christ that were killed by them show their true colors.

Do not confuse followers of Yeshua Hamashiach with the Kingpriests of Rome and their thirst for earthly power.

Tevilah is the Jewish equivalent to baptism.
Like sacrificing animals, it occurred regularly as a purification ritual
After Christ, it became a one off thing

Mandaeans have priests in the church, Christians have Jesus as the priest, mandaeans have religious practice, Jesus taught against priests and ended religious practices for Christians

Your premise is broken and wrong from the start and then just keeps failing and failing

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

I half remember watching a documentary on underground caverns in Rome that had paintings of women that helped spread Christianity in Rome. It would not surprise if females were the real backbone of early Christianity.

Pro Tip: The Antichrist of historical Christianity is the Christ of Gnostic Christianity.

a reply to: glend

Christianity is a religion based on many other religions. Plagiarism peppered with hypocrisy!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Tevilah is the Jewish equivalent to baptism.
Like sacrificing animals, it occurred regularly as a purification ritual
After Christ, it became a one off thing

Your premise is broken and wrong from the start

The rite of passage for Mandaeans is baptism (for without baptism no Mandaean may pass onto the next world here.
The rite of passage for Jews is circumcision.

a reply to: glend

The problem for this idea is that Mandaeanism may not be old enough to for this to be the case and indeed may have taken many of it's tradition's despite it's rejection of Jesus, Abraham and Moses from Christian sources, it definitely does revere John the Baptist though but may have much of it's origin elsewhere.

In fact the earliest potential proof is from the late 3rd to the 4th century and does not reference the religion just some of the figures that appear within it.
www.gnosis.org...

Now though there language diverged from the original Aramaic this community does still use it's own variant of Aramaic so back then they would have shared idea's along with language in common as Aramaic was the common language of the middle east of the time and actually was first to Greek as a second common language which may not have been widely spoken in what is today Iraq and Syria were this community exist's.

So I think you have an interesting Idea but my own religious conviction's aside as I am a Christian and while this has piqued my curiosity I doubt very much that John the Baptist was a member of there cult, Mary remember was raised in the Temple, her father a priest of the Jewish Religion and would have revered Abraham and Moshe unlike this community which drew it's origin's seemingly from what little we can ascertain from NON Judea'n lineage (They may still have had Israelite ancestry though and indeed likely most of the indiginous people's of the middle east do even today).

There religion which was definitely impacted by John the Baptist and which may have merged his teaching's with it's own rejecting only those part's they did not find compatible was likely still extant but somewhat different at that time, it is also possible that it may have been founded by or altered by a convert to and non Jewish disciple of John the Baptist which would also put it at AFTER the time of Christ and a competing if less successful belief.

a reply to: glend

Or maybe the Mandaeans have it all wrong and Jesus is a true messenger of God.

originally posted by: glend

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Tevilah is the Jewish equivalent to baptism.
Like sacrificing animals, it occurred regularly as a purification ritual
After Christ, it became a one off thing

Your premise is broken and wrong from the start

The rite of passage for Mandaeans is baptism (for without baptism no Mandaean may pass onto the next world here.
The rite of passage for Jews is circumcision.

Well the thief on the cross wasn't baptized and was promised heaven

Your Mandaeans religion sounds nice and whatever but it ain't Christianity and Christianity is not in no way related
A Christian does not need to be baptised to be in a relationship with our God

Yours is a belief or rules, regulations and religions. Jesus taught love

originally posted by: glend
It is commonly thought that Christianity diverged from Judiasm but there are many indicators that question that belief. Perhaps the most obvious is that Judiasm itself does not believe in spiritual baptism by water (Tvilah is moreso clensing). So both John the baptist and Jesus were practicing a tradition foreign to Judiasm.

Mikveh From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given Jesus was a relative of John the Baptist according to Luke 1:67-79. (Elizabeth was the wife of Zachariah, mother of John the Baptist and cousin of Mary who was the mother of Jesus) its likely that Jesus was brought up under the same belief system that John the Baptist and his father Zachariah practised, which was most likely Mandaeanism. A religion of pacifism that accepts Adam, Abel, Seth, Enos, Noah, Shem, Arambut but rejects the teachings of Abraham and Moses.

Baptism in Mandaeanism takes place on Sundays, consists of a threefold complete immersion in the white sacral robe, a threefold signing of the forehead with water, a threefold draught of water and the crowning with a myrtle wreath. Followed on the bank of the river with the anointing of the forehead with oil, a simple communion of bread and water, and the handshake of truth.

The Mandaeans are taught to love their neighbours. Their worldview stamped by gnostic dualism, a world of light and a world of darkness that exist in mutual hostility. The World of Light is a world of goodness and truth and eternity without death. The World of Darkness is a similar in construction to the World of Light, but is full of evil and falsehood.

Mandaean history tells that the persecution of their community (death of John the baptist etc) in Jerusalem caused them to flee into eastern territories. Mandaean literature includes the Book of John (drasha dyahya) supposedly authored by John the Baptist that speaks of Jesus as a desciple of John's.

Its possible that Jesus tried to influence the Jews with Mandaeanism but was rejected by their uncompromising adherence to Abraham and Moses. (John 8:59)... "At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Mandaean text thought to be written 300AD rejects Jesus as the Jewish-Roman Christ or as the son of GOD because their religion only accepts the one true GOD. However that feeling might be a reflection of the Roman Christ (paulism) rather than the man himself.

Link for more info about Mandaeanism

Mandaeism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Clearly Mandaens are post Christian (a heretical Gnostic reaction against Christianity), Christ and John the Baptist could not possibly have been promoting their philosophies.

a reply to: LABTECH767

The Mandaeans are a small sect with a unique alphabet that still practise astrology today, so I wouldn't be game to suggest how old there religion is, but it could very well surprize. 2nd century Aramaic inscriptions uncovered in Elymais similar to the Mandaean dialect puts us closer to John Baptist timeline! Given there is so little information on John the baptist anyway it would be an enigma to my mind why any religion would entertain that lie, given it has no reward.

However I can believe that the negativity in Mandaean text against Jesus might have been introduced at a latter date in response to Roman Church and Jewish antagonization against their religion. They may have seen Jesus as the reason for their condemnation and forced exit out of Jerusalem.

There religion which was definitely impacted by John the Baptist and which may have merged his teaching's with it's own rejecting only those part's they did not find compatible was likely still extant but somewhat different at that time, it is also possible that it may have been founded by or altered by a convert to and non Jewish disciple of John the Baptist which would also put it at AFTER the time of Christ and a competing if less successful belief.

Yes very possible as well.

Just looked up that Mary living in temple is from the Protevanglium of James which I have never read, but will do.

Thanks for the interest.

a reply to: chr0naut

Clearly Mandaens are post Christian (a heretical Gnostic reaction against Christianity), Christ and John the Baptist could not possibly have been promoting their philosophies.

No thats not clear at all. Their religion is not based on christianity nor is John the Baptist a central figure in their religion. Its very possible that their sect survied in isolation (given one can only join their sect through birthright) from a pre-Christian age. That as astrologers they were given special privelges, providing protection through the ages. Although many believe the magi for example were followers of Zoroastrianism they could have been Mandaen priests expert in astrology.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: chr0naut

Clearly Mandaens are post Christian (a heretical Gnostic reaction against Christianity), Christ and John the Baptist could not possibly have been promoting their philosophies.

No thats not clear at all. Their religion is not based on christianity nor is John the Baptist a central figure in their religion. Its very possible that their sect survied in isolation (given one can only join their sect through birthright) from a pre-Christian age. That as astrologers they were given special privelges, providing protection through the ages. Although many believe the magi for example were followers of Zoroastrianism they could have been Mandaen priests expert in astrology.

There is no reason to think Mandaens are Magi (a different ethnically specific religious tradition).

Also the origins of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, the Magi, Christianity and the Mandaens are separated by large amounts of time and have substantial doctrinal differences. To suggest that 'this came from that' is not particularly helpful. The proof of such a proposition is lost to time.

The unquestionable truth is that they are now quite differentiated from each other, legally, spatially, temporally and philosophically.

To simplify my position in regard to this thread, what is an ethnically different John the Baptist and Jesus Christ doing promoting an almost unknown and secretive belief from a tiny population from another country thousands of miles away? Even if you do ignore the issue of the backwards time-line.

a reply to: glend

I have looked into this and I think you are seeing what you want to see about this group. This group REJECT Jesus and Abraham. They are as gnostic as it gets.

You have failed to include the Jewish origins of baptism entirely from your argument. I must ask myself and so must you as to why you did that? Surely if you were being intellectually honest you would have included the fact that Judaism PRACTICES baptism.

John and Jesus used baptism as a cleansing ritual in the manner of Judaism:

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Requirements of a mikveh Modern mikveh – schematic illustration The traditional rules regarding the construction of a mikveh are based on those specified in classical rabbinical literature. According to these rules, a mikveh must be connected to a natural spring or well of naturally occurring water, and thus can be supplied by rivers and lakes which have natural springs as their source.

Like the River Jordan!

Why did you not mention any of this? Why are you trying to take the Jew out of John and Jesus? They both are as Jewish as it gets. Their origins are in Judaism. Mandaeism is a gnostic tradition. Yes, it is interesting, but it is not Jewish. They do not even circumcise. They don't worship a single God even; they worship a god and a goddess. John The Baptist was a Torah Jew. He would have been circumcised as the Law of Moses prescribed. John did not believe in a goddess. He believed on The God of Moses.

You tried to make a very long shot that was bound to miss look like a point blank sure fire hit. You left out that Jewish people use the MIKVEH and that these Mandaens use it in a gnostic and pagan context.

Jesus fulfilled the Law in every way. He was the law, just like Judge Dredd.

It is as if you are trying to deny Jesus and John their religion in their absence to defend themselves so I will do it for them. Your little desert crew are not from Moses, but Jesus and John are.

The only thing that interests me here is how did John get an influence over them? When and where did that come from? Also, how far back does their tradition go? Scholars say the first 3 centuries AD. They come from the same place as Abraham in terms of birth which is interesting. How long they lived there, though, is anyone's guess. People have come and gone from that region hundreds of times through the centuries.

a reply to: glend
Have you ever watched this BBC documentary?

And there is this interesting video as well.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Zanti Misfit

I half remember watching a documentary on underground caverns in Rome that had paintings of women that helped spread Christianity in Rome. It would not surprise if females were the real backbone of early Christianity.

Well don't be, it's very well known that women were instrumental to the spread of Christs gospel
It's not hidden

I find it most amazing that people will believe the words of all sorts of books of men but reject the preserved words fo God as found in his preserved English Bible for this generation.

Follow what you want only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.