New Axis (Russia-China-India)

^^ Agree, them and their countless tensions... I wouldn’t be surprised and have read that is such a conflict takes place against china that many Western and S.E. Asian nations’ would love to help out.

U.S. had 3 million active duty troops in the cold war now they have only 600tHOUSAND SO I DON'T THINK RUSSIA IS WEEK RUSSIA HAS 988,100 ACTIVE DUTY TROOPS AS OF now 2005

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
U.S. had 3 million active duty troops in the cold war now they have only 600tHOUSAND SO I DON'T THINK RUSSIA IS WEEK RUSSIA HAS 988,100 ACTIVE DUTY TROOPS AS OF now 2005

It doesn't matter how much active duty troops there are, all that matters is how equipped they are and more importantly how the economy is doing. I know for sure that Russia's economy is doing much worse than U.S.'s economy.

Actually Russians had even more active troops, because everyone has to serve in the military for a year. Since too many joined and had no use for them, Russians changed the term to six months, lowering it to the number they have today.

Surf

Let me tell you something we Russkies don't fight for nothing if we fight U.S.A. it's for the economicl survival of the world because U.S. invaded Iraq to steal oil and give it to jews in palistine =(J.I.P.) NOW THE WANT TO DO THE SAME WITH Iran claiming that 'ol same claimage "WMD's" Terror and this time yaky do little is gonna get a very HORRIFING "SUPPRISE" here's just a small peak at what IS going to happen remember this is just a "SMALL PEAK" at what Iran has on the table this was written back in August 04 www.vialls.com...

[edit on 3-2-2005 by SiberianTiger]

I know for sure that Russia's economy is doing much worse than U.S.'s economy.
such a comment proves that your ignorance dates back to 1990s
no doubt still today Russia's GDP and GDP per capita is very small compared to USA....but Russia's economy is not doing worst ...in fact from 1998 till 2004 it has shown BEST records since 1980s ..... there has been a constant GDP growth rate of about 6% followed by similar growth of investment standards, GDP per capita,Industrial growth rate

following are the data from CIA (2003)
Index.../USA///Russia
GDP 10.5trillion 1.3 trillion
GDP per capita 37 800$ 9000$
GDP Growth rate 3.1 % 7.5%
Industrial Growth rate 0.3% 7%

all these aspect proves that though Russian Economy is far behind US economy(GDP , GDP per capita) yet its doing better than US in terms of development (Growth rates)

[edit on 3-2-2005 by prelude]

SiberianTiger, you're blinded by patriotism (sp). I advise you step back and take a more educated and objecctive look at both militaries. I am not pro-America or otherwise, but I know it is much better for myself and everyone I converse with to always try and take an objective look at things.

No offence, but you sound very young. How old are you? I have just turned 19.

You are too conditioned to believe Global Security and FAS and all other western sources are not telling lies when they say things like "Russia is in no way able to fight a major power", look man if U.S. is forcing it's reserves to fight in Iraq then U.S. ain't no match "conventionaly" for Russia.

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
look man if U.S. is forcing it's reserves to fight in Iraq then U.S. ain't no match "conventionaly" for Russia.

The US is in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, Germany and a host of other countries all without a draft. You could bet your butt there would be a draft if we are going to fight Russia conventionaly.

The US aint no match for Russia Thats what the US has been gearing its self up for like half a century. The US military was not designed to occupy and police some nation like Iraq it was designed to fight a war with Russia in Europe. Its always been better at fighting large convential wars because thats what it was created to do.

such a comment proves that your ignorance dates back to 1990s

Oh really?

The Russian economy is still in decline and exists mostly on exports of its natural resources, along with funds obtained from the U.S. and other Western countries. During the last decade, the Russian government converted almost 70 percent of former Soviet-run enterprises into the private properties of a corrupt elite and organized crime syndicates whose leaders could care less about such matters as increasing production, remaining committed solely to increasing their own private wealth.

According to Russian law enforcement agency estimates, currently about 60 percent of Russia's private banks, companies, corporations and other businesses are under the control of, or operate in close collaboration with, criminal syndicates. In Moscow and St. Petersburg, however, the number of organized crime connections is closer to 90 percent.

CIA Russia
GDP:
purchasing power parity - $1.282 trillion (2003 est.)

GDP:
purchasing power parity - $10.99 trillion (2003 est.)

My point is that it doesn't matter if Russia has 50% growth or 1% growth, U.S. economy is much better shape. It doesn't matter if U.S. is currently in decline, what matters is that U.S. is still the world leader.

but Russia's economy is not doing worst ...in fact from 1998 till 2004 it has shown BEST records since 1980s

Really?

Lot of experts disagree

Prominent American experts recognize that most of the Russian economy is "virtual," existing only on paper. They underscore that the only area of a working economy in Russia is its energy system – the so-called natural monopolies such as Gazprom and United Energy Systems are, for all intents and purposes, government property and under Kremlin control.

www.newsmax.com...

www.cia.gov... Russia

www.cia.gov... U.S.

Now is that enough, or do you want more?

Surf

[edit on 2/4/2005 by surfup]

I think you know very well that that many analysis in the media is politically motivated………………..and in spite of what media says truth remains the truth ……..today Russians are much more economically well to do than they were during the 1990s there has been a rising middle class…..toady if any Russian work hard there are ample sources for him/ her to earn money …..a street labor earn more than 500$ monthly in cities where the living expenses are around 150$ …the only poor people that we have today are those who stick to the Soviet Belief that Government and Vodka will solve all their problems and the old people who live in Govt pensions……………… teachers and doctors still have a poor salary(200$ monthly) but these people end up in earning 1000$ per month by doing additional private jobs in research institutes etc ….here lies the condition of the poor or rather lower middle class most of them today has a car a proper apartment and a stable living ….the upper middle class enjoy the living standard of any western country……..and the upper class is beyond reach……
the Western media is full against Russian Govt but the truth is that president Vladimir Putin today receives solid support from most of the Russians mainly the younger Generation Lonely planet Describes Moscow or Stpetersburg as safe and as dangerous as any US city .
If you don't want to accept the truth I cant help you If you do want have a visit of Russia …..It has a lot to offer to foreign tourists (and don't miss St Petersburg …..it’s a real heritage city), moreover US and Western NGOs are full-fledgedly investing in Russia standard and poor is constantly upgrading Russia’s Investment status …..had it been such a country as your article describes these NGOs wont have risked their investment in Russia ….here is an universally acceptable link to support my statements

magma.nationalgeographic.com...

This axis has as much a chance of happening as a US-Iran-North Korea.

Originally posted by NoobCommando
www.joelskousen.com...

As far as I can tell that link is completely bogus in its assessment..I only read the South Asia bit.. and its a grossly westernised view of the region;i.e. mostly incorrect...It alls India an economic disaster and claims that Russia will influence all activities in the subcontinent in the near future..

IMO as we progress China will shift its attention towards central asia and the pacific to project power..South Asia is already too sticky for anybody to get involved...Even the world's greatest nosey parker , the US, is staying clear of this zone...

one question to all americans on ATS who claim to understand US foreign policy...whats the deal with Pakistan...Paksitan is actively associated with nuke/missile programs in North Korea and is a close military ally of China..both nations..enemies of the US...so why continue to support Pakistan?..Paksitan has no foreseeable future..its literally bleeding itself dry as we speak..Or is the Pak link only until the islamic terror threat is somewhat subdued..??

Originally posted by prelude
If you don't want to accept the truth I cant help you If you do want have a visit of Russia

My my we are shifting tracks here aren't we?

My original point

I know for sure that Russia's economy is doing much worse than U.S.'s economy.

You bet Russia is doing much better than in the 1900s, but U.S. is the world leader, at least currently, when it comes to economy. U.S.S.R. were doing so worse that they had to collapse, which is why when you compare today to back todays looks so good.

I am sure Petersburg and Moscow is a great country filled with historical treasures by the truth stands that majority of Russian industry is run by the mafia, not that U.S. is run by anyone better.

Surf

hey ppl

this is my first post so bear with me.

the way i see it this india-china-russia alliance will not be so much of a military one as an economic one. already signs of this have been seen in the wto, namely the BRIC countries.

Recently the chinese pm visited india and said that india and china should be the 2 pogodas of development. basically he wanted the 2 to engage in more trade and put up a common front in multilateral forums, besides finding and developing synergies between the 2 economies.

as for russia, atleast to me, it seems the natural ally for india & china in such an endeavour. it is former superpower which fell to its lowest point and is currently on the path of resurgence to past glory, and wht better way to do so by developing further its relations wid india and china.

in todays world military strength counts for little. the world is too too intertwined. MONEY is wht counts, and thus an economic alliance gurantees protection of every kind to these countries.

afterall u india & china put together have over a third of the worlds population, throw in russia and it is simply too large a market for any country in the world to alienate, by taking any military action

so India-China-Russia alliance yes, but economic not military

Please 1/3 of all working Russians make less than 1$ a day, don't believe me look it up. And the U.S. has more than 600K active duty troops, but in a major war there would be drafting and the U.S. has nearly twice the population of Russia not that it would matter that much.

hmmmm...i did some checking. here are some figures to chew upon

U.S.A.
Population : 293,027,571
Population Growth Rate : 0.92%
Average Age : 36yrs
Per Capita GDP : $37,800
GDP Growth Rate : 3.1%

Russia
Population : 143,782,338
Population Growth Rate : -0.45%%
Average Age : 37.9yrs
Per Capita GDP : $8,900
GDP Growth Rate : 7.3%

China
Population : 1,298,847,624
Population Growth Rate : 0.57%
Average Age : 31.8yrs
Per Capita GDP : $5,000
GDP Growth Rate : 9.1%

India
Population : 1,065,070,607
Population Growth Rate : 1.44%
Average Age : 24.4yrs
Per Capita GDP : $2,900
GDP Growth Rate : 8.3%

Some quick calculations show that India-China-Russia combined are almost (i say almost cause the US is still bigger) as big a market as the US in terms of total purchasing power of their populations.

But the most intersting figure for me is the average age of the populations and the population growth rate. China has an average age of 31.8 while that of India is 24.4. This combined with high population growth rates (especially for India at 1.44%) will only mean a larger working population, in turn driving up the GDP even faster, translating to a better and better purchasing power

Infact according to CIA estimates China will surpass the US as the largest economy by 2050 while India will slide into 3rd place. not bad is it

What all this basically means is that if a conflict does not occur within the next say 3-5 yrs (highly unlikely) these 2 economies will be too big. In such a situation any sanction/military action by the US against them will hurt it as much (if not more) as it will hurt these 2.

Simple logic India-China-Russia economic alliance is the best way for these countries to become (to an extent) untouchable by the US

but then these are just my thoughts and critiques are invited

I'd just like to direct posters to a post that I'd made in another forum which is also relevant to this topic..

Ah. but the US does NOT have anything else (until now) to compare these fighters with..

And I for one am not comparing those aircraft to the F-16 / F-15..
IHMO the Rafale,Eurofighter,Su 30 and Grippen are definitely a clas above the F-16 and at par with the NEW AESA F-15, if not better..
That is only because of the avionics/radar upgrades on the F-15..
Otherwise these aircraft IMO beat the F-15 hollow as well..
Again a balance that may/will topple when the other aircraft themselves undergo avionics/radar upgrades..
IT just depends on who does what first...
You talk about UCAVs..
I don't know their control ranges, ot whether they're preprogrammed(no human control) before launch itself..

Maybe the russians etc. are working on new jammers or concentrated EMP weapons, or on a new radar concept itself..
Maybe a one that DOESN'T work on the doppler effect..
That completely invalidates current(and future) stealth..
The best part is unless the russians use/display it, the americans won't know what to counter...
The Russians already got some info on american stealth from that F-117 Yugoslav crash..we can be sure of that...
Wonder what they're cooking up now..

Another primer to the way Russia goes now is Putin..
He's different.. More pro-soviet : match-americans-for-whatever-they-got types.. Not the Yelstin: if you can't beat em'-join em' types..

And then you have the chinese.. and the french.. and now Israel's moving away from the US.. And mind you Israel's got very good tech know how..
Put the Chinese with the Russians..The French with the Israelis..
or mix-n- match.. Dabble a little bit of India and Brazil in there..
And lo!.. you may cook yourself an antidote to american hegemony/dominance..
You never know..

This post was in reply to one predicting american dominance well into the next century..

What's all this with "American hegemony and dominance?" It's not like we took over the world, formed an empire, and started taxing everyone. Europe lost its power long ago, and the Soviet Union collapsed.

As for American air dominance, I'd stay pretty confident that it will remain that way well into this next century. You're going to have to be pretty hard-pressed to convince other countries, aside from Russia and China, to start pouring huge sums of money into military equipment if they don't feel they need it.

And Putin more "Pro-Soviet?" I'd say Putin is just more "anti-American." The guy is calling for an "alliance with the East" as you said. Russia does not like China. That's an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" ideaology. His ideaology, however, is to join with the Chinese this time to resist the "dominance" of the "West."

Ask any military experts and just do your homework on military aviation and you will find out that the U.S. currently dominates in military aviation not in all areas but in most.
Not arrogance, just the truth And until this changes theories and what ifs are nothing more than wishful thinking and not fact.





West Point, Out.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068


And Putin more "Pro-Soviet?" I'd say Putin is just more "anti-American." The guy is calling for an "alliance with the East" as you said. Russia does not like China. That's an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" ideaology. His ideaology, however, is to join with the Chinese this time to resist the "dominance" of the "West."

Well if one calls the breaking up of the USSR "a genuine tragedy/catastrophe" then I'd presume he's pro soviet..

www.msnbc.msn.com...