Jesus view on homosexuality and civil law

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: UnBreakable

THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL.

Is that good enough for why NOT to have an abortion or does it need to be spelled out for you?

Then why is the Old Testament full of stories where god kills? He's the biggest hypocrit of them all. Practice what you preach.
It amazes me that a majority of Bible-thumping Christians are against abortion, yet pro death penalty. That's pro-birth, not pro-life. They're the biggest hypocrits of them all.

Now you want to change the theme.... figures .... get caught with your panties down and now you are reaching.....first abortion and now this? Pick a theme ... stick with it and stop changing the topic when you are wrong.

First you now understand why NO to abortion? Yes or No?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

First you would have to draw where life begins after conception. The Jews believed life starts at first breath.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Yeah nothing's wrong with forcing people to bow and worship. That's true love.

I would love to hear you tell Jesus this.

If I remember I will tell him for you....

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: UnBreakable

THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL.

Is that good enough for why NOT to have an abortion or does it need to be spelled out for you?

Then why is the Old Testament full of stories where god kills? He's the biggest hypocrit of them all. Practice what you preach.
It amazes me that a majority of Bible-thumping Christians are against abortion, yet pro death penalty. That's pro-birth, not pro-life. They're the biggest hypocrits of them all.

Now you want to change the theme.... figures .... get caught with your panties down and now you are reaching.....first abortion and now this? Pick a theme ... stick with it and stop changing the topic when you are wrong.

First you now understand why NO to abortion? Yes or No?

Hey Jackwagon, I understand. Just pointing out the hypocracy.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Do you really think Jesus would force you to submit and bow to him after he tells you that he loves you and for you to love him.
Isn't that why we fight against monarchies and tyrannies?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Do you really think Jesus would force you to submit and bow to him after he tells you that he loves you and for you to love him.
Isn't that why we fight against monarchies and tyrannies?

If we love Him and worship Him willingly, I fail to see where the "forcing to submit" comes in. We would already have done so long ago.

a reply to: ketsuko

for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Logarock

Please give examples. Even Jesus himself said not to judge others or you will be judged.

Judging Others 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

I think you are paraphrasing what he taught. It is about mirroring (karma). it can even be a hint towards the third eye sensors with the reference "your brother’s eye".

Yeshua was judging objectively with the sheep and goats parable. If he then choose to be a moral relativist after judging objectively then he will be a moral hypocrite.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Yep.

If you don't love Him, then you'll have a rough time, but then again, people often bowed to rulers they never liked. Of course, you won't be compelled to choose Him, not even then, only to admit He is Lord.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Don't practice do as I say, not as I do.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yep that's what people been doing under monarchies.

Glad you agree with me.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Deaf Alien

Yep.

If you don't love Him, then you'll have a rough time, but then again, people often bowed to rulers they never liked. Of course, you won't be compelled to choose Him, not even then, only to admit He is Lord.

What is the "rough time" you talk about? I thought that Christ, in his infinite love and forgiveness, lets us use our free will to follow him or not. So is he in fact judging those who don't follow him? I know people who are more giving and nice towards their fellow man who consider themselves atheist or agnostic, while I know others who are so-called Christians who are the biggest d-bags towards other people. Or is the fact you just say you believe in him give you carte-blanche to act #ty towards others?

a reply to: Raggedyman

He did say something about a eunuch remaining a eunuch, but in the original Greek the word can also mean an effeminate, so I hear Jesus saying that if someone's gay, they don't have to try to change into something they are not. P.S. I'm straight.

It is also true that the way of Jesus as the way of the cross doesn't seek to overthrow the state or governing authorities, but to quietly proceed to replace with something infinitely better than wells up from within as the point of transformation.

It's bottom up, grass roots, while also inviting people into a better way of life and being with and in Him.

He of course also warned about the ways of wickedness and self-will and did oppose all manner of oppression and tyranny, but he beat it with an unassailable reason, logic and love.

It wasn't a morality play though or an edict of should and shouldn't, but a higher path as the way of Love.

"Love, and do as thou wilt." (St. Augustine)

People who try to use Jesus and the Bible to be right and make others wrong, miss the spirit and the heart and the reasoning of Jesus. They don't know him and his love or they would know better.

It's not about a right or correct way to believe but about a love that's informed by the Spirit of Truth and Life which to appreciate requires that we jettison our ignorance and old and outmoded ways of thinking and being - to form an intimate, participatory fellowship or koinonia in a Spirit of mutuality and even mutual glorification, that we might be and become everything that God intended for us as created beings and as children of a loving God.

There is great risk of hypocrisy for the Christian literalist and fundamentalist who commits the sin of biblioatry.

But woe to those who use that as an axe to grind against Christ himself, they are no better by any means and their hatred and loathing is clearly evident. They are sadly mistaken, while lacking in the knowledge of true understanding.

"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments and that cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. The principal is called - contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer, Scientist

a reply to: Raggedyman

Hello, seminary student here...just 8 units away from a masters in ministry, and I have a bachelors in Theology...
In many aspects you're correct. Jesus taught love and to not judge others...take the plank out of your own eye before you worry about the speck in your brothers eye right?
Jesus hung out with sinners, to the point where local religious leaders complained and called him apostate for doing so, but Jesus loved them and accepted them, but he also told them to "go and sin no more." Unfortunately we don't have any examples of what Jesus would have said if someone just kept living in sin, he might have judged them at this point.
You also have to take into account the religious views of the time. Jesus grew up a Jew in the 1st century, I am pretty sure homosexuality was considered sinful and wrong at that point in time for the Jews, and thus Jesus likely believed that same. As we can see from other examples Jesus would have happily had lunch with any homosexuals and accepted them, but also tell them to go and sin no more. In a modern context we just don't know what that looks like.
It's difficult when talking about civil unrest or civil law, if Christians did nothing and never fought anything, what would have been different about the civil war, or WWII? Christians would likely be an oppressed minority like they are in most middle eastern countries. Even today a Coptic church was bombed in Egypt.
Christians are told not to judge, for only God can judge who is going to Heaven or Hell, but that does not meant that we cannot have opinions, and I do not think that it keeps us from judging actions. We cannot judge the soul but if someone steals from me I can judge his actions against me. The tricky part is that we as Christians should not be judging the actions of the world. Paul says "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside..." We really should only be judging those inside the church, those other Christians who are doing wrong, than worrying about what non-christian people are doing.
After all, who was Jesus more angry at, people doing wrong or the self-righteous religious people who acted like they were better than everyone else?

In the end I find it funny that people hold Christians to such high moral regard, but it's really our own fault. Christians have been self-righteous and judgmental for years. Christians are just people too, we make mistakes, we fail, even our leaders fail. It should not be such a shock that a Christian is rude or judgmental, as all people are that way to some extent, and all faiths have their hypocrites and their assholes. We're all in the same boat as far as human nature and human behavior goes.

It seems people are missing the OP's specific point that this was what Jesus taught. He isn't talking about the rest of the "bible" that was around back in Jesus' time (mostly the writings we see in the Old Testament), but rather what Jesus' message was.

I'm personally do not practice a religion, but I can understand what the OP is saying. Jesus's own words (as we are told of them) were not judgemental, even if God's words often seemed judgemental.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Correct for he also said I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

When Mary Magdelene was about to be stoned for adultrey Jesus did not stop them but simply said he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

Well, he wasn;t necessarily there to command people to stop what they are doing because it was wrong. He was there to explain things to people to people WHY it would be wrong to stone her, and make people understand right and wrong. That isn't being judgemental, but rather giving the people a chance to judge for themselves whether an action is right or wrong.

And while he may have believed Mary Magdalene may be sinning through her chosen lifestyle, he didn't command her to stop "or else", but rather explained to her that if she wants to be righteous, then her chosen profession was not the way to do it.

After he said “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” , the crowd began to disperse. At that point he asked Mary "Where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

When Mary Magdalene responded “No", Jesus then said “Then neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Sure, he told her to leave her life of sin, but I don't really see that as being judgemental. I man, he was a minister (even if he wasn't the son of God, I think he was at least a minister), and he felt it was his job to explain to people the difference between right and wrong, and then hope those people chose the "right" path rather than the "wrong".

I suppose in a broad sense of the word, it is being judgemental to tell Mary to leave her life of sin, but the sentiment behind that story does not seem to have the same judgemental quality to it that a Fundamentalist Christian "fire and brimstone" evangelist's words have. Jesus' methods seemed (generally) more gentle.

Hard to say based on translations, but the New Testament world is very homosocial.

Jesus was always with his bros.
Only the gnostics speak of any actively heterosexual Jesus, and they are considered heretics.

The Pauline doctrine says if you have not a wife, don't bother getting one; and he who has a wife should be like without.
www.biblegateway.com...:29-31

The council of the elect will be "undefiled" by women.
Rev 14:4 biblehub.com...

Maybe active heterosexuals, when they die can enter heaven, and play cards in some corner for all eternity.
But they're second-class believers at best.
Maybe they clean the toilets?

They didn't love Jesus (or St. Paul) enough to stay celibate, and instead created poverty and abortions with their heterosexual lust.

If you're a bro, stick to your brothers.
No sin in enjoying the company of your brothers.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Either jesus is god or he is just some guy who got some credit for being nice and spreading budhist ideologies to barbaric jews.

B. He was just some guy who got some credit for being nice and spreading Buddhist ideologies to barbaric (and recalcitrant) Jews.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Logarock

Oh that was Jesus' answer to a trick question. Please try to read the context.

Not really. He was demonstrating the superiority of the original over the law of Moses that His questioners were into. He did that many time on many issues. The law being such a big deal to these guys Jesus often went to original intent and the thought was the deed, that a legal line was not superior. Pissed them off.

Am I correctly deducing that you feel antagonizing and judging everyone is something Jesus told you to do?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Utilization of certain judgment is important. Wanton, needless, innacurate judgment and projection, especially upon each other, are not. Needless and innacurate judgements that many both consciously and unconsciously do.

And I see it regularly; it is frustrating to see people shooting each other in the feet, but I recognize there are other factors at hand.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Logarock

Oh that was Jesus' answer to a trick question. Please try to read the context.

Not really. He was demonstrating the superiority of the original over the law of Moses that His questioners were into. He did that many time on many issues. The law being such a big deal to these guys Jesus often went to original intent and the thought was the deed, that a legal line was not superior. Pissed them off.

Am I correctly deducing that you feel antagonizing and judging everyone is something Jesus told you to do?

Cant understand how you could deduce what you did from the above.

The law lovers held that as long as you didn't do something, break the law, you were still good. Jesus was saying that entertaining the thought was as good as the dead.......so they were really screwed.