Energy Cops Subverting American Privacy With Smart Meters

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: 727Sky

with the house empty and everything turned off.

Then someone is stealing power from your house. If nothing at all in your house is powered you are drawing 0 amps, equalling 0 kWh.

The electric hot water heater was on and a few idiot light but that was it,, both before the smart meter and after... The only difference was the electric bill after the smart meter was installed. When I queried the electric company their excuse was the meter was much more accurate.

a reply to: 727Sky

If there wasn't a surcharge on your bill for the metering device equal to the increase, and nothing changed except no one occupying the residence, I'm telling you flat out someone was stealing your power. It is as simple as someone running an extension cord from an outdoor outlet, which every house has.

It's very common.

originally posted by: 727Sky
...When I queried the electric company their excuse was the meter was much more accurate.

But it more accurate, isn't it? The old dial meters are not nearly as accurate as the newer pulse/digital meters. And when the meters had/have to be read manually a lot of human error crept in.
Surely Smart Meters cannot be considered "a bad thing" just because they bill you more accurately for your usage?

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: 727Sky

If there wasn't a surcharge on your bill for the metering device equal to the increase, and nothing changed except no one occupying the residence, I'm telling you flat out someone was stealing your power. It is as simple as someone running an extension cord from an outdoor outlet, which every house has.

It's very common.

Not arguing or disagreeing with you..Always possible but there were never any extensions cords on the house to a neighbors house when we returned unexpectedly. Whatever it was, the bill doubled and pissed me off.

a reply to: Gemwolf

Actually the old analog meters tend to be more accurate as far as readings go, it's typically human error that is the actual difference in accuracy. The dials are small, and the readings between readers easily can vary in the 10's of thousands of kWh(on very large homes). Don't get me wrong, the old analog meters do indeed go bad, but it's very rare.

Digital meters do have their advantages, as in precise readings, but if for any reason they go offline or fail to send a reading, the reading is then estimated on average use, and that is what is billed.

Both scenarios are rarities. Meter reading for both gas and electric via digital and analog is what I just spent 8 weeks learning in my last mod, so it's definitely fresh in my memory

a reply to: 727Sky

You would be surprised, it's not common for an extension cord to just be ran and left there, but if your neighbors do any kind of work involving compressors, or motors in general, and they know you aren't home, it's actually a common thing to just run a line, even past other neighbors saying "oh they told me I could plug it in so I don't blow a fuse".

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
a reply to: rickymouse

You're missing the fact that they're raising the price of your bill to cover the cost of the dumb meter while they are saving tons more money on the other side putting a whole bunch of meter readers out of a job.

...Kinda like you people who pay more for paperless billing to save a tree, yet the company billing you electronically no longer has to buy nearly as much paper and makes money hand over fist. The trees are still harvested and warehoused and not a one is saved in the end.

American's are #ing stupid.

Yeah, I totally agree. The thing about having someone come out and read your meter, they have eyes, they can see the tree leaning on the powerline and call the people to come and take it down. They can see possible problems before they happen too, if they aren't blind.

The money is going to the top of the technology empire, it is taking away jobs. Soon we will all be surfs making just enough to survive while the elite get richer.

I've posted about this before and believe me they are very invidious. Forget the smoke screen that a couple of posters are using, usage? Pah.
Listen very closely. The electric company can read your meter anytime, day or night. They can even monitor it every minute if they want. That in laymen s talk means THEY can communicate with your meter. They can alter your cost per unit minute by minute without you knowing about it, unless you happen to be looking at the meter at the time.
It was very trite to say they will charge you more in higher usage periods with the totally foolish excuse" to retrain you in you energy usage" BS.
If so then by the same token when you use energy in the low period will they give you cheaper rates? I think not.
Think on this scenario:- in your high usage period say you are watching the TV, they up your cost per unit for an hour then drop it down to your original cost after. Now you even try to challenge your bill, even in court, all they will say(as is always the case) "the meter doesn't lie, you've used the units, you must pay the price". And good luck with that.
That aint scare mongering, that aint hyperbole, that's true.

If you really want to get pissed about utility bills, go ask a business what they pay for electricity, water or gas.

...Some people learn the truth and snap...And...

...And Grow A Brain...

Wow. Just wow.

originally posted by: crayzeed
I've posted about this before and believe me they are very invidious. Forget the smoke screen that a couple of posters are using, usage? Pah.
Listen very closely. The electric company can read your meter anytime, day or night. They can even monitor it every minute if they want. That in laymen s talk means THEY can communicate with your meter.

So? That's the whole point of a smart meter. They can just as well put a meter reader (person) next to your meter and have him read the meter every single minute of the day. So what?

They can alter your cost per unit minute by minute without you knowing about it, unless you happen to be looking at the meter at the time.

I guess they can, technically speaking - depending on the make and type of meter you have. But if the metering company is being dishonest, then that is the fault of the metering company not the smart meter. Any half decent metering company should be able to prove how they get to a specific amount. The usage graphs should be available to the consumer and you should be able to make the same calculations as the metering company to arrive at the same amounts.

When you buy pack of beef patties that supposedly weighs 2 pounds at the local supermarket - do you go back home and weigh them to make sure it is actually 2 pounds? No? You trust them right? Then why would you not trust the electricity company in the same way? You have all the metering information (you should if you don't) and you have the billing scales. If your metering company is being dishonest then they should be held accountable as with any other service provider. The issue has nothing to do with the smart meter. As a matter of fact the smart meter gives you more information than an old school meter.

It was very trite to say they will charge you more in higher usage periods with the totally foolish excuse" to retrain you in you energy usage" BS.

Why? Are you familiar with electricity networks and their capabilities?

If so then by the same token when you use energy in the low period will they give you cheaper rates? I think not.
Think on this scenario:- in your high usage period say you are watching the TV, they up your cost per unit for an hour then drop it down to your original cost after.

That's pretty much how it works. Here is an example of a time of use scale:




It's really basic economics. Supply and demand.

Now you even try to challenge your bill, even in court, all they will say(as is always the case) "the meter doesn't lie, you've used the units, you must pay the price". And good luck with that.
That aint scare mongering, that aint hyperbole, that's true.

Actually, with the information available to both parties it should be easy to hold the metering company accountable. The way we do it, is we install a smart meter AND an individual check meter (i.e. a secondary meter) AND a bulk check meter meaning there are two back-up forms of accountability.

Your beef seem to be with your energy supplier, and not with smart meters and the claim that they invade privacy...

To everyone saying they can't tell what you're using: it depends on how frequently the smart meter records your usage. If they could watch your usage in real time, or by 10 or 15 second updates, they certainly could.

A spike of 1000+ watts for 3 minutes? That's a microwave.
A spike of ~500 watts for 3 or 4 hours? That's a desktop computer.
It's only when you get under about 100 or 200 watts that it becomes hard to tell. There are lots of appliances that use only a handful of watts.

And yes, if they can do this they can easily tell if you are home or not. Unless you leave your coffee pot, computer, microwave, and oven on all the time when you're at work.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

they still walk door to door here. In Australia.

but I bet they are robots anyway, they always stare at me, as I stare at them, wearing my boogie board shorts, thongs and flannel shirt...

Every one does, I think the entire planet is a hoax.

a reply to: Vector99

Unless it's mandated by any states, which I don't believe any states mandate smart meter usage it is completely optional to have one, however the optional part I was talking about was people that do have them are the ones that control how they work, not the power company.

Although not mandated , the power companies are replacing ALL meters for the smart meter. And no , they are not optional . You get a notice that they will be replacing them beforehand and a nice little propaganda piece on how they will help your power bill .

No , you dont have any control. (did you before ?)

originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: rickymouse

the old one was on our house since nineteen eighty nine and was still working fine.

Could this older meter be used remotely by the power company at their HQ to ration your energy?

OOPs , not the old ones. The new ones ,yes .

a reply to: generik

as far as i know most of these units wold be incapable of rationing your usage

Incorrect. I have had one for about 6 years now. One of the first beta testers (not my words , the power company's)

originally posted by: 727Sky

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: 727Sky

with the house empty and everything turned off.

Then someone is stealing power from your house. If nothing at all in your house is powered you are drawing 0 amps, equalling 0 kWh.

The electric hot water heater was on and a few idiot light but that was it,, both before the smart meter and after... The only difference was the electric bill after the smart meter was installed. When I queried the electric company their excuse was the meter was much more accurate.

Current flows through AC circuits continuously even if everything is off.

a reply to: Gothmog

Voltage, not current. Meters read current draw, not supplied voltage. If no amps are drawn, the meter doesn't move.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Gothmog

Voltage, not current. Meters read current draw, not supplied voltage. If no amps are drawn, the meter doesn't move.

Yes, no, sort of.

What the meter measures is the product of RMS current and voltage, integrated over time. So, it's true if the current goes to zero, the EI product will as well, but it's not a totally correct answer.

But no, AC current isn't drawn even if everything's off, that post was incorrect. Some appliances use small amounts of power even when 'off' because they're doing some sort of internal housekeeping functions like displaying a time of day clock, and some of them leave internal power supplies going even if the main appliance function's off, and these will draw tiny amounts of power, but it's negligible.

Now, if you've got a lot of switching power supplies in the house that aren't PFC equipped, or you've got a lot of big AC motors for some reason, they can make one of these meters read off because you've got a situation where the RMS metering in the smart meter isn't going to deal properly with power factors that are way off. But for most home situations, they're pretty close.

a reply to: Bedlam

Not sure about the US but here residential meters, smart or dumb, measure watt-hours IE they only detect the 'real' power component of your demand so your power factor is not a factor and Vars are ignored by domestic meters. That means you can have a really poor low power factor and not be penalised for it but there is a push for power factor correction (eg capacitors) in appliances with large inductive loads and you pay for that when purchasing the appliance.

In the case of industrial loads which can be really poor factors with large motors etc, the supply authority will also add a maximum demand recorder to the standard watt-hour metering. These are usually thermal types and they record the maximum current demand regardless of power factor and that becomes an extra bill on top of the real power consumption making it a financial benefit to get the overall power factor closer to unity IE the capacitor bank can pay for itself over a few years. Actually that led to a problem decades back where some factories would leave capacitors online all the time causing the occasional problem of resonance on the network (very bad) when the machinery was shut down so, now, power factor correction is on a per device arrangement. Some companies might opt to use some over-excited synchronous motors on a few machines instead of capacitors as they correct power factor as well.

originally posted by: Pilgrum
a reply to: Bedlam

Not sure about the US but here residential meters, smart or dumb, measure watt-hours IE they only detect the 'real' power component of your demand so your power factor is not a factor and Vars are ignored by domestic meters.

Which is why I said:

"Now, if you've got a lot of switching power supplies in the house that aren't PFC equipped, or you've got a lot of big AC motors for some reason, they can make one of these meters read off because you've got a situation where the RMS metering in the smart meter isn't going to deal properly with power factors that are way off. "

Power factor actually IS a factor. Because it causes harmonics in the neutral, and it can cause the current to not be quite sinusoidal, and not in phase with the voltage. Depending on how the meter's RMS measurement is done, it can cause the thing to read either low or high. Older analog meters did the thing right. Digital ones have a lot of ways to do the same thing, but often miss. If you've ever used a digital meter that's supposed to give you RMS measurements, you have probably run into waveforms that just do not end up processed correctly once you stray from pure sinusoidal waves. This is one reason why so many people in the 'free energy' groups think they have discovered over unity. The common digital algorithms tend to read power flows that are not sinusoids as being higher than they are. So free energy 'inventors' like Bedini and Bearden do all this work with pulsed and spiky current flows and think more power is being transferred than actually is.

Switching power supplies without PFC are notorious for drawing current in odd spiky waveforms. And that includes LED and CFL bulbs as well as computers, the stepper motor equipped washers and the like.

Landis & Gyr smart meters actually DO measure power factor, because it causes their metering algorithm to read low if it's off, and then apparently correct for it incorrectly. There's talk of a class action suit. The smart meters used for industrial plants do it correctly. But the residential ones don't. It's a reason that a Landis smart meter may increase your home electric bills. Whether the others do it, and do it correctly, is one of those things it's tough to get the electric company to admit to.

Another reason that smart meters read higher than you're used to is that they don't have inertial lag like the analog meters, and accurately capture inrush currents. And, of course, my local power company immediately started charging by tiers residentially, because they could.