Taxation is nothing but theft.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Er, buddy, the devil is in the details, as the old saying goes.
Then it gets messy as trying to gut a wild boar with a pen knife...before it's even dead.

Note: It's a law to pay your taxes. I am not endorsing that you not pay them. Pay them. I'll reply to some of the comments above later.

originally posted by: jkm1864

originally posted by: ScepticScot
The very fact that people have wealth/income to tax comes from society. The laws to enforce property rights, the roads to move goods even the very money we use.

Taxation is necessary for society to function.

And yet We had all those things before 1913 if You ever studied history You would know that

You think the US didn't have taxation before 1913?

by using any of the services or benefits that taxes provide, you are consenting to paying taxes.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
Do you want to go to a movie? You have to pay. Do you want a car? You have to pay. Do you want a hot dog? You have to pay. Do you want to drive on public roads? You have to pay. Do you want a police force, a fire department? You have to pay. Going to a movie without first buying a ticket is theft. Taking a car off the lot without first paying is theft. Reaching into a hot dog stand and taking a hot dog without paying is theft. Riding on public roads without paying taxes is theft. Calling police for help or calling for a fireman with out paying taxes is theft.

That is a simple minded argument. There is MORE than enough collected to pay for these things and then some, the problem is we are taxed when we earn income, we are taxed when we spend income, we are taxed when we own a home, we are taxed through many other means too, such as city stickers, fines from citiations, and many other ways.. The true tax rate of an average American is 53% when you count it all up in aggregate, meaning everything you will pay over the course of the year through all of your activities.

Did you read that? 53%

If that number doesn't make you want to vomit, I don't know what will make you see that taxation is indeed theft. Of course we need to pay taxes for roads, fire departments, police, and military, but it doesn't need to be paid through income taxes, property taxes, and other ways they find to steal from the populace. It literally could all be paid with a flat tax or lower tax in combination with tariff from imports. Oh that's right, tariffs get in the way of globalism and we can't have that can we?

I don't think anyone is opposed to paying taxes to help society as a whole.
The issue is with erroneous taxation to further the aspirations of a bunch of bureaucrats in Washington.
Taxation without representation!
We have a 65k page tax code!
How is the average person supposed to navigate that mess?!?
When the majority of taxes go to pay the interest on the national debt and to help fund blowing people who may or may not have attacked us on 9/11 people start to resist.


Federal taxes is just coercion with guns!

What most of you are not understanding is that the OP isn't looking for a personal way out of paying taxes just for themselves, but for everyone. Imagine that, a world where no one stole anything from you and people managed to get on just fine without it. There are plenty of alternatives to pay for the necessary services many of you have mentioned, other than having the state forcibly take your money, or better yet, lock you in a cage or shoot you if you resist.

There are plenty of communities that exist where the people are responsible for their own roads, security, and fire services. In the United States. And, as another person mentioned, we had all of these services here prior to the universal income tax. Problem is, most people aren't working together anymore, and opposite of what you think, eliminating taxation is anything but selfish as it puts the responsibility back on the people to work together. Anything that happens to you without your consent is wrong and you did not consent just by being born, and you never signed a social contract. Many of you can't simply up and move to more favorable conditions. Please rethink your indoctrination.

And as for the premise of the OP being negated by the phrase "legal right", humanity can make whatever laws it wants, but that does not eliminate our natural born rights to not be stolen from.

originally posted by: av8r007

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
Do you want to go to a movie? You have to pay. Do you want a car? You have to pay. Do you want a hot dog? You have to pay. Do you want to drive on public roads? You have to pay. Do you want a police force, a fire department? You have to pay. Going to a movie without first buying a ticket is theft. Taking a car off the lot without first paying is theft. Reaching into a hot dog stand and taking a hot dog without paying is theft. Riding on public roads without paying taxes is theft. Calling police for help or calling for a fireman with out paying taxes is theft.

That is a simple minded argument. There is MORE than enough collected to pay for these things and then some, the problem is we are taxed when we earn income, we are taxed when we spend income, we are taxed when we own a home, we are taxed through many other means too, such as city stickers, fines from citiations, and many other ways.. The true tax rate of an average American is 53% when you count it all up in aggregate, meaning everything you will pay over the course of the year through all of your activities.

Did you read that? 53%

If that number doesn't make you want to vomit, I don't know what will make you see that taxation is indeed theft. Of course we need to pay taxes for roads, fire departments, police, and military, but it doesn't need to be paid through income taxes, property taxes, and other ways they find to steal from the populace. It literally could all be paid with a flat tax or lower tax in combination with tariff from imports. Oh that's right, tariffs get in the way of globalism and we can't have that can we?

Of course it was a simplistic argument. It was meant to be. Actually it wasn't even an argument. It was just a polar absolute to counter OPs absolute statement. Do you suppose I am not aware that I have been over taxed my whole life? Do you really suppose that I need to have it pointed out to me?
In 66 when I was 19, the Beatles, the most popular rock group in the world wrote and sang Taxman. I understood it then and I understand it now.

Here are the lyrics.

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

Taxman!
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath)
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

And you're working for no one but me
Taxman!

originally posted by: Tardacus
by using any of the services or benefits that taxes provide, you are consenting to paying taxes.

What about children who are under the legal age to work and thereby generate tax? Should they too be denied services provided by tax?

To give a specific example. If a 10 year-old girl is out shopping with her mother on the weekend and while leaving the store, she suddenly collapses and blacks out with no apparent cause, and those around her cannot determine what has happened, are they wrong to call an ambulance? Let's assume later at hospital, they run some tests and cannot determine exactly why this happened to the small girl and cannot put it down to some type of neglect or malnutrition either.

Should the child be punished for using a service she did not pay for? No. Should her parent (who is legally responsible for the girl) be punished for using a service she did contribute towards maintaining? No. Should other taxpayers who do not use an ambulance but still pay for the service be punished? No.

I think this almost eliminates the possibility that somebody or something tangible is to blame besides "bad luck". Now, if this was happening very often in very similar circumstances, you would have a case that it is not an unusual situation and could therefore be legislated against.

Now, you might say the girl is legally "property" of her mother and therefore, any punishment should be directed towards the parents. The trouble with this is that not all children have legal guardians. Many children who do have legal guardians are not being brought up by parents who do pay for public services and therefore are not technically entitled to use government services, but how can we punish the parents without punishing them as well, especially if the parents are not financially secure?

You cannot make absolute statements which are not backed up by strong evidence and expect what you are saying to be self-evident.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
I'v given this argument here on ATS before and nobody has been able to refute it. Since it was a little while back and there are new minds to evaluate it, here it is:

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.

Theft = to steal

steal:

1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

taxes are a legal right.
The premise is wrong, the thread therefore is invalid. Pay your taxes.

In the US there is no law that requires citizens to pay income taxes.

Check at video at 19 minute mark

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Azureblue

Unjust taxation is a burden. Just taxation provides national defense, highways, flood mitigation, emergency services, libraries, parks, the protection of fish and wildlife, prevents monopolies......

Or would you rather get rid of cops and go back to the days of blood feuds, or the hue and cry. Where any abled person in ear shot of the hue and cry was responsible to respond?

Personal, I like a court system with judges and jury of peers. A fire department. Police department. Libraries. Parks.

I don't like taxation for the purpose of redistribution of wealth?

The USA does have one of the highest corporate taxes in the world?

You think taxation is steeling? Then why are you angry the rich are not stolen from enough?

If your happy paying tax when there is nothing stopping the govt (accept the lack of political will) from creating all the money it requires for its own needs, uisng the exact same method the banks use, to pay for all those things you want, then no worries at all mate. Go ahead and keep paying.

originally posted by: Azureblue

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Azureblue

Unjust taxation is a burden. Just taxation provides national defense, highways, flood mitigation, emergency services, libraries, parks, the protection of fish and wildlife, prevents monopolies......

Or would you rather get rid of cops and go back to the days of blood feuds, or the hue and cry. Where any abled person in ear shot of the hue and cry was responsible to respond?

Personal, I like a court system with judges and jury of peers. A fire department. Police department. Libraries. Parks.

I don't like taxation for the purpose of redistribution of wealth?

The USA does have one of the highest corporate taxes in the world?

You think taxation is steeling? Then why are you angry the rich are not stolen from enough?

If your happy paying tax when there is nothing stopping the govt (accept the lack of political will) from creating all the money it requires for its own needs, uisng the exact same method the banks use, to pay for all those things you want, then no worries at all mate. Go ahead and keep paying.

Same question I always ask when people propose this. Why would anyone use the money the government issues?

originally posted by: glend

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
I'v given this argument here on ATS before and nobody has been able to refute it. Since it was a little while back and there are new minds to evaluate it, here it is:

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.

Theft = to steal

steal:

1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

taxes are a legal right.
The premise is wrong, the thread therefore is invalid. Pay your taxes.

In the US there is no law that requires citizens to pay income taxes.

Check at video at 19 minute mark

This is in fact correct.

For our UK members there is also no law stating you have to pay income taxes unless you are in a state of war.

Is the UK officially at war? Does the war on terror count?

a reply to: southbeach

The Rothschild's started the Federal income tax in the first place. Before 1913 there was no federal income tax in the United States.

Oh yeah. Posting this video to add a humorous aspect to this discussion. Posting it like this because of the thumbnail


And here another excellent video related to this subject.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: glend

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
I'v given this argument here on ATS before and nobody has been able to refute it. Since it was a little while back and there are new minds to evaluate it, here it is:

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.

Theft = to steal

steal:

1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

taxes are a legal right.
The premise is wrong, the thread therefore is invalid. Pay your taxes.

In the US there is no law that requires citizens to pay income taxes.

Check at video at 19 minute mark

For our UK members there is also no law stating you have to pay income taxes unless you are in a state of war.

There really is.

originally posted by: Aristotelian1

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.
Premise 2: Taxation is the taking of somebody's money without their consent.
Conclusion: Therefore, taxation is theft.

It's not exactly theft.

It's like when the Mafia comes and tells you that you need to pay them if you want to continue to do business in the area, because you need their "protection" to do business there. The Mafia isn't "stealing" your money.

You get something in return for your money.

It's just that, maybe, you didn't want to buy that particular something.

Maybe, you'd prefer to buy something else with your money.

So, it's forced commerce. Whether you like it or not, you are forced to buy the services the government provides, because everybody must pay "their fair share" whatever that means.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Aristotelian1

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.
Premise 2: Taxation is the taking of somebody's money without their consent.
Conclusion: Therefore, taxation is theft.

It's not exactly theft.

It's like when the Mafia comes and tells you that you need to pay them if you want to continue to do business in the area, because you need their "protection" to do business there. The Mafia isn't "stealing" your money.

You get something in return for your money.

It's just that, maybe, you didn't want to buy that particular something.

Maybe, you'd prefer to buy something else with your money.

So, it's forced commerce. Whether you like it or not, you are forced to buy the services the government provides, because everybody must pay "their fair share" whatever that means.

What you are talking about is extortion, which is a form of theft.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

This crap again?

I'v given this argument here on ATS before and nobody has been able to refute it.

Ignoring the responses that refute it doesn't mean it hasn't been refuted.

Premise 1: All cases of theft are cases of taking somebody else's property or money without their consent.

Not quite.

theft
noun
the action or crime of stealing.

I think you need to use the correct words.

Premise 2: Taxation is the taking of somebody's money without their consent.

You consent under laws of the country that you will pay tax from moneys earned by accepting the moneys.

Conclusion: Therefore, taxation is theft.

Only if someone doesn't know the meaning of theft and doesn't understand a countries laws can they come to this conclusion.

originally posted by: Aristotelian1

What you are talking about is extortion, which is a form of theft.

Extortion, when done by a government of any nation, is just called taxes.

The Mafia taxes people too, but because they are not a government, it's called extortion.

Neither is theft. Since, when a thief enters your home, and carries away your goods, he doesn't leave anything in "exchange" behind for you to collect.

But, you can go to the government, and demand services that they took your money for.