Dear Scotland,

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

Don't you think leaving the EU counts a major change of circumstances?

For who?

For pretty much everyone in the UK i would imagine.

Exaclty...the UK - not Scotland.

The UK voted in the EU referendum...and they voted to leave.

So what's your point? The people are getting what the majority voted for...again, this is called democracy, it's not hard...is it?

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

When did that become a binary decision? There is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland would stay in the EU - you know that, and I know you are way too smart to take Sturgeons pipedream as fact.

Sorry, I voted to remain and I can't say I'm happy that the real project fear won, but it did. If Scotland had voted with the same percentage numbers as Gibraltar to stay I would have more empathy, but it didn't.

Well staying in the UK certainly means leaving. I would think an independent Scotland would be able join if it wanted although​ perhaps not right away.

Out of interest what % of the vote would be enough. Apparently 52% is enough for us to leave.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: Southern Guardian

There's a possibility they'll vote to remain in the EU but they should be able to make that decision.

Why do you think Scotland has an opportunity to vote to stay in the EU? The EU itself has said that there is no guarantee that Scotland would be accepted into the EU as a solo country based on a) its budget deficit and b) as it sends a strong precedent to other areas such as the Basque state. Scotland will at some point get another vote on whether to stay in the UK. If the majority of people living in Scotland choose not to stay, that doesn't mean they stay within the EU in and of itself.

Other than Some spaniard who in the Eu has said Scotland has no guarantee it wont be accepted. Even Junckers doesn't see a problem with Scotland being allowed either to continue it's membership or be allowed entry as it already meets the criteria required for entry.

Good grief, who are you listening to? One of the first criteria is budget deficit - Scotland's is too high to meet the criteria, you are all starting to worry me now.

I felt a lot stronger about Scotland remaining during the first once in a generation referendum, I can't say I feel as strong now because Sturgeon never seems to care about any other issue her devolved country faces than this. Maybe if Scotland does leave the UK she will have more time on her hands to concern herself with things that really matter.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

Don't you think leaving the EU counts a major change of circumstances?

For who?

For pretty much everyone in the UK i would imagine.

Exaclty...the UK - not Scotland.

The UK voted in the EU referendum...and they voted to leave.

So what's your point? The people are getting what the majority voted for...again, this is called democracy, it's not hard...is it?

And the majority of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

Given the magnitude of the decision do you not think democracy would entail at least giving Scotland the choice of what is more important, staying in the the UK or staying in the EU?

When did that become a binary decision? There is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland would stay in the EU - you know that, and I know you are way too smart to take Sturgeons pipedream as fact.

Sorry, I voted to remain and I can't say I'm happy that the real project fear won, but it did. If Scotland had voted with the same percentage numbers as Gibraltar to stay I would have more empathy, but it didn't.

Well staying in the UK certainly means leaving. I would think an independent Scotland would be able join if it wanted although​ perhaps not right away.

Out of interest what % of the vote would be enough. Apparently 52% is enough for us to leave.

To leave the UK? 51% I guess, majority counts - unlike people like Farage who said on record that if the Brexit vote was tight he would demand a recount, I think all those that disagree with the majority vote can do is grit their teeth and look to make the most of it.

I do think though that Scotland being able to join 'if it wanted' is to me a tad naive, but no problem for me, if the majority vote to go, then that's what would happen.

a reply to: uncommitted

The deficit rules are based onEuro membership not EU. There are some rules on EU membership i believe but these are not strictly enforced.

Besides which we have no idea what an Independent Scotland's deficit would be.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Just out of curiosity, and I mean absolutely no slight by this. How do you think the creation and introduction of a completely new currency from a relatively small, newly independent nation would go? Do you not fear a run on it? There would certainly be a few people/nations fancying a mischievous quick buck.

Chances are if you want to be in the EU you're going to be looking at the euro.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Scottish people should stop looking at the EU referendum as a scottish vote, it wasn't - the UK voted as a single entity...this was decided before the EU referendum when 55% of Scots voted to remain part of the union.

EU ref wasn't a Scottish vote.

It really pisses me off, that we have an ignorant and selfish 45% who believe they have more rights than the majority.

They pretend they're patriotic, yet they'd happily see the wishes of the majority be trodden on and ignored.

Westminster SHOULD block another indy ref, they'd be acting on behalf of the eloctorate if they did.

What kind of patriot doesn't respect the rights and wishes of 55% of the nation they pretend they care so much about?

Aren't people allowed to change their minds?

Why do we bother keep having elections? Should still have the Whig party in charge.

Who said people have changed their minds?

By that standard we should have a referendum every couple of years forever.

Tell me, if the nationalists finally get their way and win...will the unionists be able to call for an equal number of referendums to reform the union?

How many should we have before we decide enough is enough?

By these standars, if Scots get another referendum and win..that's two chances they were given...so we can then have two more referendums in favour of unionisation...fair's fair, right?

Who has changed their mind? I haven't...

If one of the major reasons stated by the unionists in 2014 was that the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK then surely after the referendum result that statement is null void and quite frankly boll.cks.

The SNP stated in their manifesto they would only pursue a second indy ref IF circumstances significantly change. Well by any measure leaving the EU is a significant change. So they are simply following their promise in their GE manifesto. And that GE returned 59/73 SNP MP's Pretty fricking huge endorsement of the SNP!

Now the logic of the anti indy ref makes no sense. If the Scots do not want another referendum then surely if they had one then they would all vote No in even bigger numbers and kill off the SNP's independence pursuit for decades and Nicola Sturgeon would look a plonker. Logically you allow the vote unless........you know that the statement "the scots dont want another vote" is total lies.

The only reasons I can see for denying Scotland another indy vote are twofold, first, people know the result is too close to call and we all remember up here how the gap closed 10% in the last 6 months which made westminster pee its pants as the grey suits marched up here with Labour and the Tories arm in arm.

Secondly the EU departure is a disaster and all the truth about the benefits of the EU starts to become unavoidably newsworthy so much so that the Daily Mail will struggle to lie about the EU as it has for decades. I suspect the truth about fishing will be a beaut. I have read the documentation so I already know.

FYI, I am a Yorkshireman, I have been a Labour supporter all my life. I come from a political family and have spent many schooldays in the 70's listening in to conversations in our front room with MP's! I voted Labour every election in Scotland from 1979 to 2014 and then was appalled by Scottish Labours attitude and their willingness to jump into the unionist bed with the lying Tories. I have voted SNP ever since! Mairi Black put it nicely : I didn't leave the Labour Party the Labour Party left me.

One last point : if the financial state of Scotland is so dire why on earth would England want to keep us? Surely, given the "wonderful trade opportunities we will have after Brexit" getting rid of a finance basket case would be beneficial to future deals.....unless that is also a lie.

a reply to: DrBobH

I think that is why a transitional period is important.

Scotland would have share if UK reserves and should be able to run a current account surplus which makes supporting the currency simpler.

I would probably vote against independence if the plan was to join the Euro in its current format.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Fair comment but it does rely heavily on the goodwill of the rest of the UK. This is one of the several years reasons it needs to wait a couple of years. Being sensible the following would need to be considered:-

- stability of Sterling post Brexit
- re-distribution of assets, it would be crazy to attempt at a point in time when their value is so uncertain.
- transitional arrangements

That's just the tip of the iceberg

If the rUK feels shafted by the machinations of The SNP during Brexit then this is by no means a given.

a reply to: djz3ro

You are not being chewed up by Westminster, in fact you are being economically propped up by Westminster in terms of money per head, because the treacherous SNP has squandered the money sent from hard working tax payers in England..

You only have to look at the constituency she supposed to represent which is definitely going to the dogs whilst she struts the world stage, like today she is off to America for an ego boost.. Whilst people in her home town are struggling.

She does not care about your everyday struggles and does NOTHING about them!!

It beggars beliefe you could support such a woman or a party that in the long run is creating so much division on top of the fact they have already proven many times over that they couldn't run a piss up in a brewery!!

Scotts I thought were too canny to fall for that crap, and they are!!

They voted to stay in the union

In a "once in a generation " vote

And many, the less vocal gob#es which is the majority don't want another referendum and are sick of sturgeon and the racist SNP

originally posted by: DrBobH
a reply to: ScepticScot

Fair comment but it does rely heavily on the goodwill of the rest of the UK. This is one of the several years reasons it needs to wait a couple of years. Being sensible the following would need to be considered:-

- stability of Sterling post Brexit
- re-distribution of assets, it would be crazy to attempt at a point in time when their value is so uncertain.
- transitional arrangements

That's just the tip of the iceberg

If the rUK feels shafted by the machinations of The SNP during Brexit then this is by no means a given.

In the event of a yes vote i think the process towards independence could take up to 5 years.

I thought the time scales put forward last time were ridiculously optimistic.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Indrasweb

Whats wrong with retaining our own Scottish Pound?

After all when the UK joined European Union it did not adopt the Euro currency.

Why should an independent Scotland be any different?

The only problem is that a Scottish Pound would be a brand new currency. It would not be linked with GBP which is managed by the Bank of England.

One of the prerequisite for a currency to be accepted for use within the EU is that it is established and has stability for a set period, generally accepted as 2 years. This precludes it from being accepted for at least this time period. That's assuming the Scottish Pound is stable, which would be pretty unlikely for the first couple of years following its inception.

This would leave you with the choice of having limited/no membership of the EU until the new currency has stabilised for the set period, or accepting the Euro.

a reply to: EvanB

SNP got 50% of the vote in the last UK election and 46% in last Scottish election.

Numbers any other party would kill for.

For a party that the majority are sick off and couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery those seem pretty impressive numbers.

a reply to: DrBobH

I think all parties involved, whether we are taking UK leaving the EU or Scotland leaving the UK would benefit from cooperation rather than confrontation.

International economics isn't a zero sum game and Europe would benefit from a successful UK and the UK from a successful Scotland.

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: djz3ro

You are not being chewed up by Westminster, in fact you are being economically propped up by Westminster in terms of money per head, because the treacherous SNP has squandered the money sent from hard working tax payers in England..

So why you begging us to stay.?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: djz3ro

You are not being chewed up by Westminster, in fact you are being economically propped up by Westminster in terms of money per head, because the treacherous SNP has squandered the money sent from hard working tax payers in England..

So why you begging us to stay.?

I think it is the accents, they dig the accents.

Maybe the oil?

Nah must be the accents.

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

The only time I have killed anyone is at the behest of the government YOU voted in, with YOUR mandate and YOUR vote!

From a military perspective the British soldier/marine has been used by the EU as their "military" arm for a long time because we are collectively (English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh) the best in the world.. Our special forces have no equal, and our intelligence services are second to none.

My job is to protect the British people, and that includes the Scot's

If you want to throw your anti war rhetoric about then stop being a hypocrite..

Your vote made it happen..


And the electorate has more blood on its hands than I do

Look in the mirror for blame

a reply to: ScepticScot

The SNP are being propped up by the greens..

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: djz3ro

You are not being chewed up by Westminster, in fact you are being economically propped up by Westminster in terms of money per head, because the treacherous SNP has squandered the money sent from hard working tax payers in England..

So why you begging us to stay.?

I think it is the accents, they dig the accents.

Maybe the oil?

Nah must be the accents.

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: ScepticScot

The SNP are being propped up by the greens..

The Scottish parliament is designed so that it is very difficult to get a majority of MSPs.

The SNP increased it's share of vote but got less MSPs.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Cooperation works both ways and needs to start now, we are where we are - and we are leaving the EU.

We are The United Kingdom and we absolutely need to present a united front for these negotiations. Anything else shows weakness and we will be played off against each other and and get an inferior deal.

Whether you like it or not you, and I absolutely get that you personally don't, that is where we are. If the SNP continue to meddle and disrupt we will get a worse deal than if we work together. That will affect us all and affect Scotland's chances of meeting the criteria for re-admission to the EU should you be granted a 2nd referendum and IF people choose to leave the UK.

Also you have to remember there will be no EU regs to protect Scotland's interests so any transitional arrangements are likely to be at the discretion of the rUK - and to be blunt a potentially annoyed England.

That is why I believe at this point we are stronger together whilst conceding that you have the people of Scotland have the right to choose their own path if they wish - after Brexit.

Time for a