Transgender weightlifter sparks criticism after competition Win/Every right to compete with women

originally posted by: dantanna
one of my best friends is trans.
and we both think this is ridiculous lol.

I hear you.. I keep in touch with my college roomie.. gay guy,masculine, and would put a few on their asses here that are playing billy bad ass... and we were talking about this when it first came out. We talk a LOT anyway. He says why cant trans girls with big bodies just compete in drag shows.. the competitiveness there is by far more brutal than the Olympics, you get free drinks and more prospects for a hook up.

Milehigh, I appreciate your efforts but almost think you've consumed a bit too much of the Kool-Aid. Either that or you are being completely sarcastic and trolling? Not sure if serious? Simple Tumblr-isms don't fare too well around here

originally posted by: trollz
And by the way, there are also people who believe they're animals. Are you going to say "Oh, well since this guy thinks he's a labrador retriever, he isn't a human being, he's a dog." No, you'll recognize that he's mentally ill.

This is a false equivalency. You can't equate someone thinking they're an animal with a human thinking they're a human. Gender dysphoria, the reason people transition, is considered to be a part of the normal human condition and is not categorized in and of itself to be a mental illness but rather a natural variation.

originally posted by: Advantage
Yes, sex is very much in the mind... but the body is still originally constructed male. That differs from female construction.

If we're going to be all proper and stuff, gender is in the mind. Sex isn't. Also, "originally constructed" doesn't necessarily equate to the way a person develops at least in the context we're discussing of athleticism.

If competing against someone that looked like this, would you still feel they had a physical advantage? My point being that you can't make generalizations that don't fall apart when looking at things as a whole.

I never have had a problem with trans folks.. dont look in my bedroom windows and I wont look in yours sort of thing.

Huh? What does being trans have to do with looking in windows or sex or were you speaking metaphorically? Your next line, "who they're screwing" leads me to believe you're talking about sexuality which really has little to do with being transgender.

No, women compete in womens sports because our muscle mass, composition, location and length of tendons differ, location of attachment and mass of muscle tissue, etc give us a level playing field to compete with those constructed like us and similar abilities and limitations.

Again, not necessarily meaning to be contrary but only to offer up additional information. A segment of transgender people that are of prime age for athletic competition were on puberty blockers and have never experienced male puberty giving them no physical advantages whatsoever in terms of build, muscle mass, bone density, height, etc.

Even for some of those that did experience the changes of male puberty, you can't say that all of them have some kind of magical advantage as a blanket rule.

a reply to: Freija

I say a lot of things for my amusement.. read on... plus... if youre going to be hard and fast on terms, good luck. I dont care abotu the terms.. and need a magical book on the ever changing what is what manual for the various groups. You on one hand mock the Zhe and Zim BS.. and then demand PC words on the other. Go figure.

Depends on her height and weight, plus more.. a lot more goes into athletic competition than if you look good in shorts and heels... and can put makeup on. Im not fighting a woman who is in a different class than me. Def not one who is 5 inches taller and had a +4 reach on me. Or one who weighs 90 bs soaking wet. There MUST be a level playing field or a competition is unfair. The thing is that the woman in the competition was NOT built like the others and if you read more than the OPs article about it.. youll see the problem. A physical standard has to be kept. I guess we arent keeping them anymore because it may offend someone and someone might make a stink and sue.

originally posted by: yadda333
I haven't commented in something like five years, but I've had to come out of hibernation to take issue with this.

I'm glad you did because I agree with most your post with a few exceptions about the social construct thing. Gender roles and expectations are indeed social constructs but they are fueled by biological predispositions towards certain behaviors and personalities that are innate and part of the in-born wiring. That discussion exceeds the topic of this thread so I digress...

But let's not be willfully ignorant for the sake of maintaining a position on an argument. The socio-cultural problems we're facing these days stem directly from people's unwillingness to examine things critically. We are willing to form a protest mob and shout down people with a differing position without really examining that position.

I see this happening from both sides of this argument. Not necessarily here so much but in other mediums and comments. My post history will indicate that I have tried to bring information and awareness and somewhat of the trans perspective to this community but often encounter closed minds and the willful ignorance of which you spoke. This isn't necessarily easy to do when one ends up on the defensive.

The OP is a great example of why we have to actually consider multiple sides of an issue. Again, I don't have a problem with an individual doing as they please in terms of gender, sex, and sexuality, but clearly there are real scenarios in which our desire to be ultra politically correct can have complex, unforeseen effects. Pretending this isn't the case is not only naive but also unhelpful--we need concrete ideas and solutions, not fantasy land denial and delusion.

What complex scenarios with unseen effects? Perhaps I should reconsider my opinion of your post because your last line seems to insinuate that trans people are the ones whose unchecked political correctness is the root of this problem whenI see the dogma and rhetoric from the "other side:" to be equally as unpleasant. I agree with you in principle that both sides need to having a better understanding and learn to talk without pitchforks and torches in hand

originally posted by: Freija
Gender dysphoria, the reason people transition, is considered to be a part of the normal human condition and is not categorized in and of itself to be a mental illness but rather a natural variation.

According to what? Is this something that is published by scientific sources?

What if I just like to win?

How could I set it up so I can compete against the physically disabled?

originally posted by: Lysergic
What if I just like to win?

How could I set it up so I can compete against the physically disabled?

I have a South Park episode for you to watch Lys...

a reply to: Advantage

I left room in there, like at first I was like yeah I could dominate women.

Then I remembered Amazon womminz.

Bad idea.

Who can I physically beat in physical activities?

Why the physically handicapped (is that the SJW term these days? handicapable? (sounds like too much competition, I need incapable.)

PAYDIRT!

originally posted by: Advantage
a reply to: Freija

I say a lot of things for my amusement.. read on... plus... if youre going to be hard and fast on terms, good luck. I dont care abotu the terms.. and need a magical book on the ever changing what is what manual for the various groups. You on one hand mock the Zhe and Zim BS.. and then demand PC words on the other. Go figure.

Sex and gender are "PC words"? Sex is biological - male or female based on chromosomes, anatomy and chemistry. Gender refers to something else such as boy/girl, man or woman. Expressions of gender are usually called masculine and feminine. There is nothing politically correct about this. It is just the way these words have evolved to be correctly used. Ze and hir and they/them pronouns though are indeed promoted through political correctness and civil politeness. I've not mocked people who are into this sort of thing but I have been critical of those co-opting the transgender label for legitimacy because of it. "Real" transgender people transition from one to the other, not somewhere to the middle or nowhere and I don't consider the 96 Tumblr genders generation that don't suffer with gender dysphoria to really be transgender. It is the media and public perception that has conflated these things.

Depends on her height and weight, plus more.. a lot more goes into athletic competition than if you look good in shorts and heels... and can put makeup on. Im not fighting a woman who is in a different class than me. Def not one who is 5 inches taller and had a +4 reach on me. Or one who weighs 90 bs soaking wet. There MUST be a level playing field or a competition is unfair. The thing is that the woman in the competition was NOT built like the others and if you read more than the OPs article about it.. youll see the problem. A physical standard has to be kept. I guess we arent keeping them anymore because it may offend someone and someone might make a stink and sue.

Well, if it matters to you, I am in complete agreement with what you said here. Physical standards have to be met and there are always going to be some snowflakes out there to rock the boat.

originally posted by: Freija


What complex scenarios with unseen effects?

Unforeseen, not unseen.

Assuming you just mistyped (and I'll check again to see if I mistyped), then I have to ask: Is it not obvious that the OP is a rather slippery, complex scenario? Do you not think that there are, and will be, other scenarios in which we're not quite sure how to deal with issues pertaining to trans people?

More clearly: "Ya know, Carl, I'm perfectly fine with you transitioning to female in your 30s--we're still friends, and I don't want anybody to mistreat you. But I'm not sure what the effects of you becoming a professional women's weight lifter would be considering you were born a biological male and lived as a man for 30 + years. Now that I'm thinking about this, how are we going to address similar scenarios in the competitive sports world when have, for the longest time, tended to structure competition in male/female binaries? Wow, these are rather slippery scenarios that I haven't given much thought."

That's makes sense, right?

If you actually reply and/or answer my (mostly) rhetorical questions, please accept my apologies if I don't immediately, or ever, respond. I never posted a lot in the past, and it's highly likely that I'll disappear again

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: Freija
Gender dysphoria, the reason people transition, is considered to be a part of the normal human condition and is not categorized in and of itself to be a mental illness but rather a natural variation.

According to what? Is this something that is published by scientific sources?

Heh, 'natural variation', such as a non-drug/trauma-based mental illness?

What mental illnesses aren't 'natural'? All are natural, but does not make it 'normal'. Trans try to normalize their mental illness while ignoring it's all in their head like the rest of all mental illnesses. Head problem yet not mental, how so?

Being a feminine boy or a butch girl is fine, that's more of a 'gender' thing, but when your body n brain aren't in biological sync and want to surgically alter your body, that's a mental problem. It's one of the reasons why LGB community does not get along with Trans all the time.

LGB is a purely sexual preference/orientation group that has nothing to do with all this weird 'gender' crap added on recently such as the T & Q n other gender abbreviations. Two different situations trying to sneak their way in n make em think it's the same. T does not belong in LGB just as T does not belong with 'gender'. It's an excuse to normalize mental illness. If a transgender weren't mental illness, that person would just be a feminine boy or butch girl, NOT butcher their own body.

a reply to: Freija

LOL Of course it matters. It ALL matters.. and we dont have to agree on 100% of everything for me to enjoy and respect your posts. I even learn a little.. though Ill never admit it. I believe its ALL PC nonsense.. people are just people. Good lord, just treat everyone like a fellow human being. Unless they do something stupid, then accidentally spill your drink and lit zippo on them.

originally posted by: trollz
According to what? Is this something that is published by scientific sources?

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

Unfortunately, most of the peer reviewed scientific sources you are looking for are behind paywalls. Just as being homosexual is no longer considered a mental illness, as the scientific and medical understanding of these things has advanced, just as being gay is considered part of things that happen as variations in the human condition, so is being transgender i.e. having gender dysphoria.

Additionally,

Taking the entire breadth of the findings uncovered by research, it appears that there is more than sufficient evidence that transgender persons either have a serious hormonal-based birth defect, have been exposed to exogenous chemicals which have impacted their gender development in the womb, have a genetic karyotype which differs from the general population, or via some other process have a brain structure which is different than would be indicated by their chromosomes. While no single study presents proof beyond any shadow of a doubt or with metaphysical certainty, taken together they do present a preponderance of evidence such that one can say with confidence that transgender individuals have a congenital gene-based difference from cissexual individuals. source

originally posted by: yadda333
Is it not obvious that the OP is a rather slippery, complex scenario? Do you not think that there are, and will be, other scenarios in which we're not quite sure how to deal with issues pertaining to trans people?

Oh no, I completely agree with that and discounting all the other more important things going on in the world, this is just one of things society is still in the process of working out.

More clearly: "Ya know, Carl, I'm perfectly fine with you transitioning to female in your 30s--we're still friends, and I don't want anybody to mistreat you. But I'm not sure what the effects of you becoming a professional women's weight lifter would be considering you were born a biological male and lived as a man for 30 + years. Now that I'm thinking about this, how are we going to address similar scenarios in the competitive sports world when have, for the longest time, tended to structure competition in male/female binaries? Wow, these are rather slippery scenarios that I haven't given much thought."

That's makes sense, right?

Yes, it makes sense to me but here's where I have to diverge and weigh my own personal biases and opinions against the political correctness of the Transgender Borg and of the "transgender movement" in general before commenting on this.

On one hand, there's the party line to tow and on the other, some of my own feelings that are contrary to what I'm "supposed" to believe and proselytize about. As to the nature of my biases, I can understand them logically but that still doesn't mean I don't feel them or that they don't color my opinions at times.

Let's just say that as far as trans people go, there are separate diagnostic criteria for children, adolescents and adults and as far as I'm concerned, different etiologies as well and I come from the minority demographic. Subsequently, I don't represent the broader spectrum and not necessarily the full boat political views of the majority. I get in trouble for this at times and some of it is probably justified but I do feel it is important to show that not all us are flag waving mindless drones calling themselves females with a penis.

In the OP's story, I think this person competing in the women's category is absurd regardless of what they consider themselves to be. It just isn't fair and by evidenced in this thread alone, it creates a negative wave of public opinion of trans people as being somewhat crazy and unreasonable and using political correctness to achieve their means. I really hate that, especially when a person like this who has lived 35 or their 39 years as their natal sex. These people and these behaviors are not representative of me or my life.

And now to express my "elitist" views... these negative public opinions are most detrimental to transgender children and adolescents that have never grown up to be men in the first place. Political correctness would have you believe we're all just the same thing but trust me, it is a mistake to not make distinctions and put everyone in the same bucket.

Fine, switch genders. Live full time as that gender. If you look like, dress like and act like a woman, for gawd's sake, use the women's washroom but then don't go overboard and claim it's okay to physically compete against natal females in sports if you are not physically equal. This is holdover male privilege or something and I just don't get it why anyone thinks this is okay? I understand the arguments but that doesn't mean I have to agree with or like them even though I do have some insight into the physiological differences between male and female bodies and/or those that have medically transitioned.

Yes, there are issues and problematic situations that call for dialog and negotiation. Some want to push boundaries and others want to push back with little middle ground. I do know that when transgender people are ridiculed and called mentally ill and not taken seriously or respected, things break down in a hurry. When segments of the trans community make unreasonable demands and do stupid public stunts like the person in the OP, that's just as bad for creating understanding and working things out suitably for everyone.

originally posted by: Neil4No1
Trans try to normalize their mental illness while ignoring it's all in their head like the rest of all mental illnesses. Head problem yet not mental, how so?

The leading body of scientific and medical research points to being transgender as neurobiological in origin, not psychological, so you could call this a head (brain) problem I suppose? How else can you explain children that are born this way and express complete cross-gender identities from the time they begin expressing themselves if it is not something wired in from birth? To them, they don't know any difference and the only thing that seems out of place or not normal is their body and the gender role they're expected to follow. I was one of these kids and this is how I grew up.

Being a feminine boy or a butch girl is fine, that's more of a 'gender' thing, but when your body n brain aren't in biological sync and want to surgically alter your body, that's a mental problem.

This is a matter of perspective. When there is nothing wrong with you mentally that can be changed, then it becomes a problem with the body. Is there anything in the world that could ever possibly convince you that you were not a boy/man (I'm assuming) or change your mind? Being feminine or masculine are expressions or attributes of gender expression and stereotypes. Gender expression is not necessarily representative of gender identity.

It's one of the reasons why LGB community does not get along with Trans all the time.

LGB is a purely sexual preference/orientation group that has nothing to do with all this weird 'gender' crap added on recently such as the T & Q n other gender abbreviations. Two different situations trying to sneak their way in n make em think it's the same. T does not belong in LGB just as T does not belong with 'gender'. It's an excuse to normalize mental illness. If a transgender weren't mental illness, that person would, NOT butcher their own body.

Oh brother! You have some interesting (crazy) ideas. Being trans is not " just being a feminine boy or butch girl". You have zero understanding of what you're trying to talk about.

And people wonder why we can't have more meaningful conversations about this stuff.

originally posted by: Advantage
LOL Of course it matters. It ALL matters.. and we dont have to agree on 100% of everything for me to enjoy and respect your posts. I even learn a little.. though Ill never admit it. I believe its ALL PC nonsense.. people are just people. Good lord, just treat everyone like a fellow human being. Unless they do something stupid, then accidentally spill your drink and lit zippo on them.

I like your attitude and this was pretty funny. Just remind me to never go drinking with you!

a reply to: Freija

Okay, so if not 'in tha head', it's neurological. So phantom-limb syndrome for body parts and feelings of the opposite sex that the person never has or never will experience, regardless of how many drugs or plastic surgeries they have?

Talk about false feelings. Sounds like trading one problem for another seeing as it's impossible to change one's sex, only mask it. Again, where do feminine boys n butch girls fit in? On the far side of the spectrum, just right below cross-dresser and butcher-your-body? Why the extreme?

And now...some music.

originally posted by: Milehigh

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: Milehigh
She's a she. PERIOD. no feminist would be mad at this story. Im glad she finally got to compete as her real sex.

Hubbard was born the son of former Auckland mayor Dick Hubbard

Human biology would disagree with you.

Actually no, biology corroborates it. Glad for her. True example of inspiration

The only "true example" here, is a true example of someone with the overblown ego and drive of a professional athlete, but not the talent.
But they still want to win. They want to win soo bad, that they will go to ANY length to do so.
I refuse to believe that this person decides to jump off the porch at 30, after failing as a male athlete.

Everyone should compete together. You shouldn't be encouraged to be first best of second best.

originally posted by: Neil4No1
Okay, so if not 'in tha head', it's neurological. So phantom-limb syndrome for body parts and feelings of the opposite sex that the person never has or never will experience, regardless of how many drugs or plastic surgeries they have?

Normally I try to be helpful and informative but you're obviously very confused and maybe trolling a bit but this is so all over the place and strikingly unbelievable, I can't resist even if I think it is pointless

Okay, so if not 'in tha head', it's neurological

As in the wiring and structures of the brain that develop in utero.

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

So phantom-limb syndrome for body parts and feelings of the opposite sex that the person never has or never will experience...

What? How could you have phantom limb syndrome for something you've never had? Do you even know what that means and what the hell does it have to do with being transgender? Quick! Apply for a refund to get the $1.50 you spent on your psychology degree back. You got gypped.

...or never will experience, regardless of how many drugs or plastic surgeries they have?

Hmmm? Other than childbirth and menstruation, what are these missing experiences and feelings you're talking about? If you're meaning sex, my lady bits happen to work just fine for that, thank you. If you're talking the experiences and feelings of being a woman, that's the only experience I've ever known so I don't know how to respond.

Talk about false feelings.

How kind of you to invalidate my feelings because you think you know more about me than I do. Here's a tip: you don't.

Sounds like trading one problem for another seeing as it's impossible to change one's sex, only mask it.

No, it's a matter of solving/fixing one problem with the best way that is possible, recognizing those "limitations" of science and medicine and getting on with life. Besides, there are more elements to one's sex beyond simple chromosomes which is the predictable argument you're going to make so don't bother. Unless you're going to carry a lab and a microscope around in your pocket and conduct a $700 karotype test, chromosomes mean absolutely nothing.

Again, where do feminine boys n butch girls fit in?

They fit into the world of feminine boys and butch girls. Their gender expressions or mannerisms do not make them transgender.

As to this whole "butcher your body" thing you've got going on, just stop it. Not that they're analogous at all but do you have any tattoos or piercings? Many consider those things mutilation and butchery.

The vast majority of transgender people do not have "sex change" surgery. On average, only about 10% to 20% do and this is considered a corrective or reconstructive procedure that is considered medically necessary and not cosmetic. If you had a birth defect or impairment that could be satisfactorily fixed to improve the quality of your life and happiness, wouldn't you want that?

Beyond your confused opinions, you're really out of your league on this subject. Either stick to what you know or learn more before sticking your foot in your mouth and coming across uninformed. Our motto here is to "Deny Ignorance". Stick around with an open mind and that's still a possibility for you.