The Physical Appearance Of the gods According To Ancient Text.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Marduk

a bit off topic....but im curious what you think about the fact that mountains are so ubiquitous?

Because at the same time of being "in your face", the tops are unreachable. So it was pretty simple for the early priests to say "they are watching you from on high", to enhance their own power as go betweens. If someone really believes that the Gods existed then sure, must be aliens, but that's the same level of nonsense inherent in believing that Jesus died for your sins, or that YHWH sent a flood. Its well known that certain gods were deified ancient heroes and kings. Why would that happen if the gods were actually present and the usual, "where are they now" issue that all gods, real and imagined suffer from...

originally posted by: Marduk
If someone really believes that the Gods existed then sure, must be aliens, but that's the same level of nonsense inherent in believing that Jesus died for your sins, or that YHWH sent a flood. Its well known that certain gods were deified ancient heroes and kings.

Well, at least we know that Paul Bunyan created the Grand Canyon by dragging his axe behind him while walking through the region.

You certainly can't dispute that. After all, it's written down.

Harte

a reply to: Marduk

I mean...it seems reasonable.

But the Cosmic Hunt isn't seen in southern India, southern China, pacific islands, and australia. The roots of the story are thought to date deep into the roots of humanity. Possibly to the first peopling of Europe, based on the above.

Mountains are treated similarly. There was a phylogenetic study done on the Cosmic Hunt....i wonder if Axis Mundi would yield similar results, or if its holy throughout the world?

Sometimes I wonder if similarities across the globe are more a result of it being the same species solving the same problems repeatedly. Or if there is another explanation that we aren't seeing. Its odd to read things like domestication events happening around the same time in wide scattered areas without thinking travel took the notion there Unless you just consider that its humans solving the same problems. Then again, age estimates are just that. And the Iron Age took awhile to spread to all parts of the world.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Marduk

I mean...it seems reasonable.

But the Cosmic Hunt isn't seen in southern India, southern China, pacific islands, and australia. The roots of the story are thought to date deep into the roots of humanity. Possibly to the first peopling of Europe, based on the above.

It could have developed as late as 15,000 years ago

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

Mountains are treated similarly. There was a phylogenetic study done on the Cosmic Hunt....i wonder if Axis Mundi would yield similar results, or if its holy throughout the world?.

I think there's a possibility that its a holdover from leaving Africa, the Greeks are a great example of why. The Greeks are known not to have been Greek much more before 2500BCE, Greece is a result of Ionians and Dorians migrating into the country and merging with the native Mycenaean's, prior to that the two groups all lived in Anatolia, so when they reach Greece, the nearby Mount Olympus becomes the home of the Gods, which kinda implies, that they must have had that myth travelling with them the whole time. The Ionians sacred mountain was Mount Sipylos, so maybe that was its origination, but I would suspect because of the proliferation of Sacred mountains globally that it is far older, maybe as you say, going back to leaving Africa, and maybe a relic of the encounters with Neanderthal. Though that's a fancy with very little supporting evidence.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Sometimes I wonder if similarities across the globe are more a result of it being the same species solving the same problems repeatedly. Or if there is another explanation that we aren't seeing. Its odd to read things like domestication events happening around the same time in wide scattered areas without thinking travel took the notion there Unless you just consider that its humans solving the same problems. Then again, age estimates are just that. And the Iron Age took awhile to spread to all parts of the world.

So why can't it be both, inherited mythology and humans solving problems, I think the instances are too numerous to claim a single cause. It certainly answers the question "why pyramids".

Fallen Angels Biblically I find fascinating.

I`ve only recently bought the book of Enoch and yet to read it, But from what I think I`ve heard is Azazel is cursed by God the most because he was one of the fallen Angels who taught man warfare.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls the name Azazel occurs in the line 6 of 4Q203, The Book of Giants, which is a part of the Enochic literature found at Qumran.[8]
According to the Book of Enoch, which brings Azazel into connection with the Biblical story of the fall of the angels, located on Mount Hermon, a gathering-place of demons of old (Enoch xiii.; compare Brandt, "Die mandäische Religion," 1889, p. 38), Azazel is one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the Flood; he taught men the art of warfare,
en.wikipedia.org...

Azazel is where the term scapegoat comes from and it blows my mind that its Mt Hermon the place they descended to.
How is it possible to see this image so long ago and link it to the goat by chance.





Anyway just wanting to add a little bit.

a reply to: gps777

Why did you buy it, its free online
www.sacred-texts.com...

Angels didn't exist prior to 700BCE. They were originally depicted in Judaism as just messengers of God. Angel is Greek for Messenger. All that stuff about them coming down and having a fight is later additions to what was originally a pretty standard adaption to Monotheism by a race enslaved by polytheists. There were no names for angels at all in Judaism until after the diaspora.

Scapegoat and Azazel are a much later in the day addition to a concept that has been around since at least the 24th C BCE

and I can't see the goat, neither could they, that's is simple pareidolia

As an evolutionary survival trait we have developed to see images where there isn't really anything there, because reacting to say an image of a lions tail in long grass, even if it isn't there, over thousands of years the monkeys who thought they saw something and ran, had more children than the monkeys who didn't see anything and didn't run. Sometimes it wasn't the imagination, in your case it clearly is, you can experiment and prove this easily, just show the image without lines on it to anyone you like and ask them what animal they see. Some of them will see dragons.

You have simply drawn lines on an image that didn't exist before you drew them. Because in your imagination they are there. Noone else shares that with you, its like one of those moving image photos that only half of us can see, in ancient times the half that couldn't see it would be out feeding the lions.

a reply to: Marduk

Thanks for the search terms. Im foggy on prehistory and how it interrelates. Hopefully i can work on that.

Prehistory is itself pretty foggy.

Harte

originally posted by: Marduk

Why did you buy it, its free online
www.sacred-texts.com...

I can read any translation of the Bible online, yet I still own 2.

But its good to know for people who don`t want to own a book.

Angels didn't exist prior to 700BCE. They were originally depicted in Judaism as just messengers of God. Angel is Greek for Messenger. All that stuff about them coming down and having a fight is later additions to what was originally a pretty standard adaption to Monotheism by a race enslaved by polytheists. There were no names for angels at all in Judaism until after the diaspora.

That's only if you don`t believe Angels exist.

Scapegoat and Azazel are a much later in the day addition to a concept that has been around since at least the 24th C BCE

and I can't see the goat, neither could they, that's is simple pareidolia

I`m well aware of pareidolia and why would you be surprised they couldn`t see it back then, when the pic is an aerial photograph.


but to say you don`t see it after your statement..

That would be anything Judaeo Christian for example...

It doesn`t surprise me in the least, as your heavily biased against.

You have simply drawn lines on an image that didn't exist before you drew them. Because in your imagination they are there. Noone else shares that with you, .

Firstly, I didn`t draw the lines, I found both pics in a search.

Secondly you don`t get to speak for everyone else and its something you cannot possibly know. Besides that someone else drew the outline also disproves you, that I`m the only one who can see it.

Regardless I think it amazing that the story of Azazel being linked with the goat and also Mt Hermon being the very place they were said to descend to is a mighty big coincidence.

I`ll read the Book of Enoch though I will also read it with a big pinch of salt.

originally posted by: gps777

That's only if you don`t believe Angels exist.

?

Its not a statement of belief. its a statement of fact. There is no recorded history or mention of "angels" in any text prior to the jews return from Babylonian exile.

If you have evidence to the contrary, i'd be very interested in reading it. Keep in mind: this isn't a religion forum. Its an ancient civilizations forum. No one will care about the religion, only the anthropology.

a reply to: Harte

what got me interested was that we were able to sequence DNA and get at least a genetic baseline to work from. With that, things like phylogenetic studies can make more sense.

Im sure im not the only one, but im enamored with the pursuit of understanding how our ancestors thought. I study it in modern people, and its just something I really enjoy working on.

Its a dispute i have with coworkers, but i have this belief that you can summarize anything in a formula. It may not be simple (producing logic is not simple), but it should always be possible. And while i don't pursue creating behavioral algorithms (i've dabbled at predictive analysis in the past), I do like to try to summarize behavior in concept, using concrete terms.

originally posted by: gps777
That's only if you don`t believe Angels exist.

Jews don't believe that Angels exist, they originated the idea, to please the Babylonians, as soon as they got out from Babylon, they stopped talking about them
Do you think that was
1. The Angels asked them to shhh
2. God asked them to shhh
3. It was made up to please their owners and they didn't require it when their owners ceased to own them

One of these is an established fact, the other two are nonsense I made up, can you actually tell the difference ?

originally posted by: gps777

It doesn`t surprise me in the least, as your heavily biased against.

My specialist subject is the development of religion in the Holocene, I don't have faith in the Bible because I am familiar with the Akkadian texts most of the Old testament was plagiarised from. Would you like me to link you to the first flood story or the tower of Babel story, both written a 1000 years before Judaism existed and featuring different Gods ?
Are you even aware that the Old testament was mostly written in Babylon and that the slaves who worked in the libraries of the Babylonians, the librarians themselves were Rabbi's who were tasked with translating texts from Babylonian into Assyrian. How do you think they became familiar with stories which were written a 1000 years before their book was.

Surely any good researcher would be more interested in the originals than the unauthorised rip off.


As a work of plagiarised fiction, why would anyone put their faith in it, isn't that a bit like putting your faith in a cult leader who tells you he is Jesus. With the bible they are putting their faith in people who claimed to speak for God and that's a God who apparently didn't exist until after 1200BCE

originally posted by: gps777

Firstly, I didn`t draw the lines, I found both pics in a search.

Secondly you don`t get to speak for everyone else and its something you cannot possibly know. Besides that someone else drew the outline also disproves you, that I`m the only one who can see it.

Oh really, so the blog you got that from wasn't actually connecting Aliens, Mt Hermon, angels and the Roswell incident.
and the part in which the image you used didn't have "The Goat Head of Azazel" as its title

Like you were primed to see a goat head, if the guy had any credibility, he would have just posted the picture without lines on it and then asked people what creature they saw. I checked out Josh Peck, he's an out and out Aliens walk among us nut as well as a "Biblical researcher" who believes that the American government has been keeping that Alien secret for years. For me that's pretty hard to swallow, that the American government can keep a secret, I've never seen any evidence for that have you. lol

And why didn't you mention that he tried to link the exact same picture to the Nazca lnes by drawing the Nazca spaceman on the same aerial view.


Quite clearly, you didn't even mention that because you know as well as I do that anyone who would do that, is a few sandwiches short of a picnic. But hey, you were happy to omit that, omitting information which would help people decide on something is called a lie of omission

Lying by omission

Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. For example, when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission. It can be compared to dissimulation.

An omission is when a person tells most of the truth, but leaves out a few key facts that therefore completely change the story

That's what you just did, you lied to people here to try and convince them of the validity of your argument
So you're lying and you don't seem to know or understand the basic facts about Angels.
You are going to have to try harder...


You didn't even link to Josh's blog, please allow me, anyone want a laugh, don't bother with this, its not funny and its not clever

Loser Blog

originally posted by: Marduk

My specialist subject is the development of religion in the Holocene, I don't have faith in the Bible because I am familiar with the Akkadian texts most of the Old testament was plagiarised from. Would you like me to link you to the first flood story or the tower of Babel story, both written a 1000 years before Judaism existed and featuring different Gods ?
Are you even aware that the Old testament was mostly written in Babylon and that the slaves who worked in the libraries of the Babylonians, the librarians themselves were Rabbi's who were tasked with translating texts from Babylonian into Assyrian. How do you think they became familiar with stories which were written a 1000 years before their book was.

I`m aware of epic of Gilgamesh, and also aware that other cultures also have a flood story.

I don`t know why you think because one is recorded before another that disproves the later.

Recorded doesn`t equal invented.

As a work of plagiarised fiction, why would anyone put their faith in it, isn't that a bit like putting your faith in a cult leader who tells you he is Jesus. With the bible they are putting their faith in people who claimed to speak for God and that's a God who apparently didn't exist until after 1200BCE

Its pretty sad really and only makes my faith stronger the more people attack, "Do to others as you would have them do to you'

Thou shalt not murder, rape, steal, commit adultery etc, must be so vile to have those who believe in these values and where they come from be attacked persecuted and killed for. Or those who highjack the core teachings to their own nefarious reasons.

Oh really, so the blog you got that from wasn't actually connecting Aliens, Mt Hermon, angels and the Roswell incident.
and the part in which the image you used didn't have "The Goat Head of Azazel" as its title

You keeping making assumptions as fact, I didn`t get it off any blog. you can find both the images I posted by a simple search. click here

Lying by omission

Also known as a continuing misrepresentation, a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. For example, when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission. It can be compared to dissimulation.

An omission is when a person tells most of the truth, but leaves out a few key facts that therefore completely change the story

That's what you just did, you lied to people here to try and convince them of the validity of your argument

So you're lying and you don't seem to know or understand the basic facts about Angels.

You are going to have to try harder...

I havn`t the foggiest what your rambling on about other than you calling me a liar, which I take exception to.

If you want to discount all the Biblical prophecies through the prophets which came about just as described throughout the OT, or disbelieve in Jesus or the prophecies within the NT which is lining up with what was foretold would come. That's entirely up to you.

Now I have just received bad news that a close mate of mine of 50 years just passed away, so you`ll have to excuse me and I`ll let you guys to bash away to your hearts content.

originally posted by: gps777

Thou shalt not murder, rape, steal, commit adultery etc, must be so vile to have those who believe in these values and where they come from be attacked persecuted and killed for. Or those who highjack the core teachings to their own nefarious reasons.

THen this will really make your head spin: Mosaic Law was ripped off from the Babylonians as well. Hammurabi was their Moses

Which would make Mt Sinai a yarn, too.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

THen this will really make your head spin: Mosaic Law was ripped off from the Babylonians as well. Hammurabi was their Moses

Which would make Mt Sinai a yarn, too.

No that doesn`t even come lose to making my head spin.

Did Moses copy the Law from the Code of Hammurabi?

And I saw and read what the other guy said about me before his edit and will no longer have anything to do with him, unless he apologizes. Life's to short.

originally posted by: gps777
[
And I saw and read what the other guy said about me before his edit and will no longer have anything to do with him, unless he apologizes. Life's to short.

I am sorry you think you know anything.
I am sorry you can't contribute without lying
I'm sorry that you think posting a refutation by yet another "believer" has any relevance
I'm sorry that you don't think that some biblical laws which date at the earliest from 600BCE aren't based on an earlier set of laws written by Hammurabi, who's laws date to 1900BCE
or
Ur-Nammu's code, 2100–2050 BCE
or the Laws of Eshnunna, 1930 BCE
or the Code of Lipit-Ishtar,1870BCE

Because you think that a man who didn't exist anywhere but the Bible, who's book was written when the Hebrews were living in Babylon, couldn't possibly have based their laws on the laws they were actually governed by while they were alive
Or weren't you aware that the Talmud was actually known as the Babylonian Talmud
The Talmud is the basis for all codes of Jewish law, and is widely quoted in rabbinic literature.
Best you stick to Jebus and the New testament, seeing as you seem to be unaware of how your religion was actually founded and what it is based on
But for anyone else interested
Genesis, contains Babylonian nouns and is partially set in Babylon and contains descriptions of Babylonian temples
Exodus, a fictional account of how Hebrews enslaved by a great civilisation, escaped back to Israel, written when they were slaves of a great civilisation, and wanted to escape back to Israel
Leviticus, contains references to Hebrew slaves being freed at a time when the Hebrews were slaves of the Babylonians
Numbers, contains references to Abraham, who was born in Babylonian Ur.
Deuteronomy, contains direct references to Babylon and names kings of Babylon interacting with Hebrew leaders

I mean, I could go on. But I think you get the point.
One other thing, those laws of Moses, written on tablets, do you perchance know which was the only culture at that time who wrote on Tablets, do you need a clue, starts with a "B"

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Marduk

a bit off topic....but im curious what you think about the fact that mountains are so ubiquitous?

Wiki said its because mountains get the closest to heaven. Why is this the sanctity of the heavens so wide spread? I'd read somewhere (wish I could find it now) about there being 2 type of human viewpoints relating to peoples who had stories that were related to The Celestial Hunt, and peoples who didn't. I think it was southeast islands and Abooriinal Aussies that were not Celestial Hunt followers.

Do you think the reverence for "the heavens" relates to the same type of dynamic? Are there peoples who are not revering mountains, and do they tend to fall in a cluster or something? It seems the Celestial Hunt demarks around 50kya, during the migration from Africa that resulted in Hobbit Peoples eating some humans on their way through to Australia., IIRC

From a geological perspective, mountains like the Himalayas and the Alps are built from cratons, huge solid chunks of igneous rock that extend from the mountain peaks all the way down hundreds of miles into the Earth's mantle. The mountain ranges are usually hundreds of millions of years old, having been formed from sedimentary layers that travelled deep underground, were baked then returned to the surface then into the air.

That alone would make mountains seem like giant celestial beings.

a reply to: stormcell

You should also consider that the rivers that come down from mountains cause the land to be fertile, so an association of rivers with Life would mean that the mountain is associated with creation.

I have a question or two regarding the fact that two separate terms have been used in this thread to refer to a specific group of people: Jews/Hebrews. The relevance of this to the thread is in relation to the use of language in religious texts mentioned.

Of course, I am a mere ignorant moron in the presence of great minds and don't pretend to know anything whatsoever about this subject.

Please could someone explain to me why these two different terms can be used in that way? Is there anything to the fact that a certain know-it-all started using one term and in later posts changed to the other one? Please clarify.

Anachronistic