I Want help with this potential SJW paradox

a reply to: Abysha

Your argument was the best explanation so far and is very strong but I am not convinced just yet. The person in the OP is not stated as having gender dysphoria simply that they were born a biological male and want to identify as a woman. In my previous post, I used genitalia and example but also mentioned the body. A person who has taken steps to take hormones, surgery or both, has taken steps to change their biology therefore influencing their "feel".

Does a male have to want or try to change their biology to call themselves a woman?

if so then there is no conflict but if biological feel has nothing to do with their desire to identify as a woman what are they basing it on?

originally posted by: ms898
a reply to: Abysha

Your argument was the best explanation so far and is very strong but I am not convinced just yet. The person in the OP is not stated as having gender dysphoria simply that they were born a biological male and want to identify as a woman. In my previous post, I used genitalia and example but also mentioned the body. A person who has taken steps to take hormones, surgery or both, has taken steps to change their biology therefore influencing their "feel".

I just assumed that wanting to "identify as a woman" meant she had gender dysphoria. It's difficult for me to wrap my head around why somebody would want to go through all of that unless they had to. But there are some people who don't have any sort of dysphoria but would like to present themselves as a gender not assigned to them at birth. So that's my goof for not taking that into account.

My assumption still stands though and the OP was likely using the language they understood for it. Keep in mind that "transgender" is an umbrella term that covers all sorts of people who fall into the genderqueer category so it's handy (when applicable) to distinguish between transsexual and transgender just as it is handy (when applicable) to distinguish between ghost pepper and any pepper. It can make a huge difference, depending on the topic.

originally posted by: ms898
Does a male have to want or try to change their biology to call themselves a woman?

That's a great question. In my opinion, a person doesn't have to do anything to their own body to call themselves anything they want. I guess it comes back to the individual. Again, that's an example of distinguishing between transgender and transsexual.

originally posted by: ms898
if so then there is no conflict but if biological feel has nothing to do with their desire to identify as a woman what are they basing it on?

That comes back to the sex markers I mentioned before. Neurological sex markers correspond to the transsexual's actual gender (in the case of the OP's example, a woman). People with gender dysphoria do have sex markers that are biologically mismatched with the gender they were assigned at birth. This points to possible causes for gender dysphoria but they are still finding more.

It's important not to confuse drag queens and transvestites with transsexuals (gender dysphoria). Drag queens are men who totally identify with men, enjoy their manhood, but also enjoy performing as their opposite sex. Their "desire" to do this is because they have fun doing it or they were gifted with a figure better than their girlfriend. I only bring up drag queens because people often conflate them with trans folk.

originally posted by: 4N0M4LY

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Wow dude, did you just say 'imbalance' lol, your lucky this thread is a touchy subject...

I am no scientist but I do think this deserves a scientific explaination. It cannot be explained away like some would think.

Just for the sake of argument and conversation, how do you draw the line when some "imbalance" is "normal variation" that just lies on the very edges of the bell curve and when it's "abnormal" enough (disease/illness/problem/pickyourword?) to need a "cure" or "fix" by allmighty science? Should excessively musically gifted people identified by DNA be "cured" to be more "normal", as surely they're as rare and "imbalanced" as gay- or trans-people? Or some autistic savants who might offer "the humankind" something extraordinary, knowing curing their autism - or other related problems - will quite likely "cure" their savant features as well?

a reply to: scubagravy

----Just to add, both have relatives who are transgender.


I dont know man. Its just too effing weird to me.

Putting aside my personal.bigotry...and looking from a species survival perspective...is promotion of gender ambiguity beneficial or desirable for the said species ?

And for the record...sometimes I watch tranny porn...so obviously im not prejudiced against.

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman. You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society. You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

Brain scans show there is a difference.

The brain determines your gender - - not your physical packaging.

originally posted by: Abysha

It's important not to confuse drag queens and transvestites with transsexuals (gender dysphoria). Drag queens are men who totally identify with men, enjoy their manhood, but also enjoy performing as their opposite sex. Their "desire" to do this is because they have fun doing it or they were gifted with a figure better than their girlfriend. I only bring up drag queens because people often conflate them with trans folk.

I find it odd that .....

There are men who are 'show biz' transvestites like Danny La Rue, Lilly Savage,

Barry Humphries, etc. and those who are transvestite in life like Eddie Izzard

and Grayson Perry among others

But do you get women transvestites? I dont think I know of any.

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman. You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society. You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

I am genuinely interested in what ATS thinks about this. For the record, I have deep respect for transgender people and believe people are born with gender interests.

The reason for this topic is that I know there is a lot of discussion in society about innate gender interests and whether they exist which i find interesting.

I guess, if you want to wear red high heels, buy them and to hell with what other people think.

a reply to: eletheia

Yes. They are called drag kings. They are not as common for the same reason male fashion shows in general are not as common. It's simply not as glamorous or fun, I imagine.

a reply to: Abysha

Ultimately the underlining issue with the issue presented in the OP is that the term man or woman has definition. To say that under any circumstances someone can identify as either is in conflict with gender neutrality because any trait or feeling could be ascribed to either gender therefore making gender identity useless.

Hypothetically speaking of a person who had all the biological markers and societal gender traits of male to then just say he wants to identify as a woman could have heavy implications when it comes to things like government grants which would then break the system set up to encourage a certain demographic.

As some liberals believe anyone regardless of circumstances should be able to claim identity of either or all genders which would undermine gender identity.

originally posted by: ms898
a reply to: Abysha
As some liberals...

I think you solved this thread's equation right there.

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: scubagravy

----Just to add, both have relatives who are transgender.


I dont know man. Its just too effing weird to me.

Putting aside my personal.bigotry...and looking from a species survival perspective...is promotion of gender ambiguity beneficial or desirable for the said species ?

And for the record...sometimes I watch tranny porn...so obviously im not prejudiced against.

I get ya, my post was more along the lines of monkey see monkey do type of thing, i just didnt explain it right.

*i shouldn't drink and ATS.... its dangerous

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: scubagravy

----Just to add, both have relatives who are transgender.


I dont know man. Its just too effing weird to me.

Putting aside my personal.bigotry...and looking from a species survival perspective...is promotion of gender ambiguity beneficial or desirable for the said species ?

And for the record...sometimes I watch tranny porn...so obviously im not prejudiced against.

I get ya, my post was more along the lines of monkey see monkey do type of thing, i just didnt explain it right.

*i shouldn't drink and ATS.... its dangerous

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: scubagravy


Putting aside my personal.bigotry...and looking from a species survival perspective...is promotion of gender ambiguity beneficial or desirable for the said species ?

for real why is it only when trans or gay issues come up that we're all supposed to be constantly super concerned with The Survival Of The Species? Any other topic on this deityforsaken board and good ol' homo sapiens can take care of itself, but bring a sexual minority into the mix and all of a sudden it's all oh so altruistic worries for the welfare of the species as a whole..
I Wonder Why

a reply to: continuousThunder

for real why is it only when trans or gay issues come up that we're all supposed to be constantly super concerned with The Survival Of The Species? Any other topic on this deityforsaken board and good ol' homo sapiens can take care of itself, but bring a sexual minority into the mix and all of a sudden it's all oh so altruistic worries for the welfare of the species as a whole.. I Wonder Why

do tell what my motivation is. Is it because I'm a bigot and a racist ?

but bring a sexual minority

sexual minority ? You mean gender minority right ? Watch it man...somebody might mistake what you meant to say and conclude that you meant that this issue revolves solely in and around the sexual context.

I realize your intentions are not bad...but somebody might take offense here.




edit:

that somebody is not me...