SERMON 4: Free Will / Predestination Dualism

In Physics (quantum mechanics) there is this famous phenomenon of particle / wave dualism of light particles (photons), moreover there is also this strange double slit behavior, when you measure in which slit the photon went through its a particle, when you do not measure a single photon its a wave, look it up in Google “double slit experiment”.

We cannot grasp with our “3D” brains how this can be, the paradoxical behavior must happen in a dimension for which we have no senses, at a transcendental level.

I believe that this is also the case for the free will / predestination debate in theology, which is going on for more than 2,000 years now. Intuition tells the people when one is true it excludes the other, so the debate is highly polarized, however the Catholic Church seems to have found the golden middle by saying: “People have a free choice (free will) whether they want to stick to God’s plan (predestination) or not”. The problem even with this golden middle is that God is therefore not omniscient and as a consequence not omnipotent, because he does not know the future then, since the free will of the people is not influenced by Him, people are separate entities from the divine.

There comes a little help from the Computer Sciences (a branch of Mathematics) that goes something like this:

…deterministic Turing machines or non-deterministic Turing machines, can both not solve certain mathematical problems, these problems are called “with mathematical logic unsolvable problems” and are proven mathematically as such…

A guy called Lucas derived from above that there could be free will in humans, OK maybe far fetched, but nonetheless my basis too. I derive from this that both predestination and free will are equally true. Determinism = predestination as in planned events, and non-determinism = the random (True Entropy) uncertainty of events.

math.stanford.edu...

With our fragile brains and psyche we cannot comprehend this dualism because its a paradox, why cannot both sides of a paradox be true? In God’s dimension, in the world of The Holy Spirit maybe this is maybe not a contradiction. We mortals can of course not act, think or experience like God or completely understand God. Moreover maybe God created the Universe simulation like this.

I think we got to have all free will / predestination dualism options open.

a reply to: galien8

Frankly, I feel as in a circumstantial/consequential universe, I find the concept of "free will" troublesome. In my forty years of life, it has been my observation and experience that we make decisions based upon circumstance and a weighing of consequence rather than what we actually wish or want to do. To my notion, that's not really "free will." While "free will" is a nice idea, I question it's validity.

a reply to: galien8

I created a post about this a while ago.

The post shows how we can have freewill that leads to predetermined outcomes for some of your choices, while still maintaining freewill. It may be interesting to you.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: SpeakerofTruth
a reply to: galien8

Frankly, I feel as in a circumstantial/consequential universe, I find the concept of "free will" troublesome. In my forty years of life, it has been my observation and experience that we make decisions based upon circumstance and a weighing of consequence rather than what we actually wish or want to do. To my notion, that's not really "free will." While "free will" is a nice idea, I question it's validity.

OK "free will" means here no influence from the divine entity, people are an entity it self, how you deal with social influences or political influences etc. is still by your own free will

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: galien8

I created a post about this a while ago.

The post shows how we can have freewill that leads to predetermined outcomes for some of your choices, while still maintaining freewill. It may be interesting to you.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nice, maybe there is a predestination scenario A and B for every free will decision A or B you make, when you chose A you get into scenario A and vice versa. God only knows the scenarios and not what you chose, when you chose A God can exclude B, all the future scenarios is of course a very complicated structure of branches

a reply to: galien8

That's how I see it. A very complicated puzzle. To complicated for man to fully understand but not to complicated for God to orchestrate.

originally posted by: galien8
I think we got to have all free will / predestination dualism options open.

We always have the 'option' of 'error'.
Many, many exercise it!

"To have 'free-will' is to have the ability to 'do otherwise'.
In the complete history of the Universe, no being has ever 'done otherwise', no moment has ever been 'otherwise'!"

'Free-will/choice' exists as a *thought*, a 'belief', a 'feeling'. Thats all. But it exists! Everything exists!
The notion of 'free-will/choice' is unsupportable both from a scientific or philosophical perspective.
Yet it exists in/as 'ego/thought'.
'Thoughts' come in various flavors; memory, anticipatory/expective, imagination, ...
That which exists as 'thought', exists! (as 'thought')
Everything exists!

Benjamin Libet's famous experiment certainly pounded another nail in the 'free-will/choice' coffin! Demonstrating the the brain initiated the action "prior" to the 'choice' being made, 100% of the time!
There are so many nails in that obsolete vain belief's coffin already, but i don't have the space, here, to elaborate.

'Free-will/choice' depends on some moment of existence being 'otherwise'! Never, never in the existence of existence has (or can be) any moment ever been 'otherwise'! Ever! What is, is, and that's all that is or ever can be!
What is, (already) is!

Every moment of existence exists Now!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

There is only one moment (Planck moment; 10^-43/sec; "almost" one billion trillion trillion trillionths of a second!!!) of the entirety of existence/Reality/the Universe!
All existence, ever, is one, literally, 'timeless' moment!
Now!

A 'moment' is a unit of perception, a percept!

"Reality is a synchrony of moments!"

Another point.
To completely define something, the context in which it is perceived must be included in the description.
Ultimately, the COMPLETE context of anything is the entire Universe (One!)! (at any moment!) So, to actually 'change' something from what is, to what you find more comfortable (the usual basis of 'desires' and the 'thoughts' of 'will' and 'free-will/choice'), you would have to alter the entire Universe (think Butterfly Effect)!
What an egoic/godlike ability! And just for your own comfort! You might have to ignorantly wipe out 17 galaxies and 486 civilizations so you can 'create' that new chair...
Get the drift?
Thank GOD! that it is impossible for us to 'change' anything!!!
(Any more than a telescope can have 'creative powers' over what it is pointed at!)

Religiously speaking;
The 'belief' in 'free-will/choice' is the physical manifestation of the one and only sin, Pride! (Insanity!)
It is saying, in essence; "Let MY Will B Done! Now! Abracadabra in Jesus' name (or whatever magic...)... Ah-me!"
Believing that we can 'change' the Universe, that which 'Is', for what usually amounts to 'personal comfort', is quite the ego masturbation!!

No conversion exists.

A prominent Baptist minister who used to do seminars using science to prove the Bible who promoted Creation science said in his attempts to prove a literal 6,000 year old earth that "its all true, or its all false".

Genesis 10 says that each tribe had their own tongue or language.





Genesis 11 says that at the Tower of Babel scattering of languages that the entire world spoke ONE language or tongue.



biblehub.com...

Therefore its all lies according to the ordained Creation science preacher.

originally posted by: namelesss

'Free-will/choice' exists as a *thought*, a 'belief', a 'feeling'. Thats all.

I like the idea of free will because then #bigbrotheriswatchingyou is not omnipotent en omniscient, I have said bigbrotherdamnit many times thats why and when you say bigbrotherdamnit you actually say that #bigbrotheriswatchingyou may curse you and doom you, work against you and stuff

originally posted by: namelesss

'Free-will/choice' exists as a *thought*, a 'belief', a 'feeling'. Thats all.

I like the idea of free will because then #bigbrotheriswatchingyou is not omnipotent en omniscient, I have said bigbrotherdamnit many times thats why and when you say bigbrotherdamnit you actually say that #bigbrotheriswatchingyou may curse you and doom you, work against you and stuff

I've been resonating with this idea combining the multiverse with the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Given enough time and an infinite number of Big Bang like expansions eventually every possible state of matter will be realized. I think it is important in the studying the mind of God to realize just unimaginably huge the mind of God must be to contain all the information that could ever possibly be experienced. I don't think our words can ever come close to a full comprehension. Our view of space and time is so extremely limited.

For example, take our Big Bang for moment. When you consider the current multiverse string theory our Big Bang is the inflationary result of a star collapsing to black hole from a previously existing space-time dimension. The Universe we are in is not even close to the center of reality. If you consider there are billions of stars in our Universe capable of collapsing into black holes creating a big-bang like inflationary event, wow, that's a huge amount of time. And each new black hole is creating billions of more stars capable of the same big-bang inflationary result. My God that's a huge thought to hold in one's head!

So this larger Universe which includes the Multiverse, reality is really big. Time is really long. Any creator God must be revered from the perspective of just how mind boggling it is to imagine something so big and so long can ever be created. Assuming the realm or mind of God exists everywhere and for all time, and independent of whether you believe in a personal anthropomorphic type God or a pantheistic type God, the extent and depth of God's mind is extremely humbling in the most absolute sense imaginable.

At this point in my life, I tend to lean more towards the pantheistic type perspective of God. A pantheistic God is not concerned about personal morality. A pantheistic God is too busy representing the Universe it all its complexity.

Now consider, with that much amount of time, then it is possible for every pattern or configuration of matter that can occur will occur over an infinite number of space-time dimensions created by each big-bang inflationary event. With the Multiverse, every possible quantum state will eventually be realized and experienced.

Now consider the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics:

"The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wave function and denies the actuality of wave function collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternate histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). In layman's terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite[2]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes."

"Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realized."

en.wikipedia.org...

The idea that every possible quantum outcome is realized is very important. In one space-time dimension you make one choice if your life. And in another space-time dimension you make a different choice. In each space-time dimension you live out your whole life from that choice forward. In the many worlds interpretation there are infinite number of yous existing in an infinite number of alternate space-time dimensions. Every possible choice, that is every possible quantum outcome being realized, is played out to its completion.

This has important implications in terms of spirituality. Over this larger view of time, there are in infinite number of yous making "good" choices. And there are an infinite number of yous making "bad" choices. Every possible choice you are capable of making exists and is played out in some space-time dimension to its completion. Since all our choices are realized over all the space-time dimensions in the multiverse then the question becomes are any of us truly "good" or "evil"?

If every possible version of our character configuration can occur, then I would assert from a spiritual sense the sum total of who we are is neither "good" nor "evil" since all the versions of who we are or who we can be exist in one way or another. In any space-time dimension we are just one manifestation of our spiritual selves. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are little of both. But in the totality of our being we are all neither good nor bad since we are every possible way we can be exists.

An omnipotent God who is aware of every possible version of who we are across the entire multiverse would appreciate us for everything we could possibly be both good and bad. So what I am thinking is an all-powerful all-loving God would allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced, or not practiced, our religion. God's love is not restricted by the choices. This is because who we are is every possible choice we can make played out to its completion which actually exists at some point in time.

Some people might say then this means morality is not important. I would reply in once space-time dimension you feel that way. And in another one you do not. How you react to what I am saying is just one possible alternate space-time dimension in the multiverse.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Any creator God must be revered from the perspective of just how mind boggling it is to imagine something so big and so long can ever be created.

False.

Any God must be revered for having respect for US law. Extortion is illegal and it is a felony. Oral Roberts a famous Baptist televangelist said that God was going to kill him unless his viewers sent Roberts ministry 8 million dollars. Threatening people for money or property is extortion. Therefore God is guilty of extortion.

God wouldn't even be able to get in the Coast Guard as the Coast Guard does not except felon applicants. Plus God set a bad example for other people. How many people have committed felonies simply because they saw God, who is an authority figure, threaten Roberts for money?

And now Rex Tillerson is threatening the North Koreans for developing nuclear weapons to protect themselves from a nation which armed illegal combatants, the Mujahadeen and promotes child sex trafficking in the name of Jesus and the true Mormon church.

The President of North Korea would have to be out of his mind not to defend his nation against nonsense.

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Any creator God must be revered from the perspective of just how mind boggling it is to imagine something so big and so long can ever be created.

False.

"Must be revered" is obviously the expression of an opinion. Opinions are neither true nor false. Opinions are not facts. And opinions cannot be lies.

I also said "Any creator God" giving you the option to be an atheist without being offended. But you seem like you have an ax to grind just for using the word "God". Remember, "God" is just a word. I was just using it to represent a huge thought in my post.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

So this larger Universe which includes the Multiverse

If big bang / big crunch is the model for all the multiverses the complexity of the Universe Simulation game is not infinite, not infinite number multiverses, not infinite number possible quantum states, huge but limited

originally posted by: dfnj2015


I also said "Any creator God" giving you the option to be an atheist without being offended.

God even gets offended with Oral Roberts when his viewers aren't tithing enough. Seems to me that God should have threatened Oral Roberts viewers if they weren't tithing appropriately.

One of the Holy Ghost carriers even got offended with me, simply for asking questions about Brigham Young's statements in an 1800's Mormon publication stating that he thought there were six foot tall men who dressed like and followed the Quaker religion. Threatened me for politely asking questions in a gentle manner with these exact words "We(The Salt Lake City Mormons) will haul you in".

Seems to me the Holy Ghost and his people need to GTFO if they can't handle appropriate questions addressed by honorably discharged rescue swimmers from the Coast Guard.

Honestly even when paying a full 10 percent tithing to God, honoring the Sabbath, honoring the 10 Commandments I haven't had as much unprovoked trouble with Holy Ghost baptized Christians versus marijuana users who are engaged in fornication who supposedly should be not carrying the Holy Ghost given their lifestyle.

It seems that God and his Holy Ghost carrying servants get really offended at people giving God money and avoiding sexual transgression, and marijuana users don't really get to offended even not possessing much religion in their lives.

"Give me 8,000,000 dollars or Oral Roberts gets whacked".

originally posted by: galien8

originally posted by: namelesss

'Free-will/choice' exists as a *thought*, a 'belief', a 'feeling'. Thats all.

I like the idea of free will because then #bigbrotheriswatchingyou is not omnipotent en omniscient,

The notion of 'free-will/choice' is VERY attractive, on many levels!
"'Satan' comes as an angel of Light!" (If you don't mind an appropriate quote...)
Ego loves it because, ultimately, to 'believe' that we have 'free-will/choice' is to be a God (in 'our own' mind), to be able to create and to alter the Universe according to our 'will/desires', what usually boils down to our 'comfort level'.
WHO'S Will Be Done? (assuming Xtian)

I have said bigbrotherdamnit many times thats why

and when you say bigbrotherdamnit you actually say that #bigbrotheriswatchingyou may curse you and doom you, work against you and stuff

So, you are saying that, because the Universe ('We' cumulatively) Know everything, that We (the Universe) would "curse you and doom you, work against you and stuff"?
I understand how it can 'feel' like that, at times, but feelings are thoughts/ego and never to be believed!
The Universe actually 'working against you' would be like you working against your left eye!
We are all features of the One Self!

"Sometimes, we get what we want, but we ALWAYS get EXACTLY what we need!"
(Even when 'we' do not know what we need, and that is most of the time!)
Thank you Universe/Self! *__-

a reply to: namelesss

God (THE ARCHITECT) is the creator and manager of the universe, he manages in another dimension, is omnipotent and omniscient

#bigbrotheriswatchingyou is a human feeling godlike, he feels himself omnipotent and omniscient by science, technology and the surveillance industry, big brother is the beast from the sea, do not worship the beast, it abuses his power, torturing common decent people ,,,vengeance is mine, says THE ARCHITECT...

with my bigbrotherdamnit I was only mocking the beast