Athens, was founded by who and when ?

I've been doing some research lately on Athens and it seems no one can give me any info which is credibly confirmed.

If you ask the Greek authorities they just keep repeating the mantra that Athens is Neolithic, which they base on a couple of artefacts which were found there from that period. On that basis pretty much every city on earth is probably Palaeolithic at the very least. Their emails to me also look like spam, from an email address I can't read, with just this link contained therein.
www.eie.gr...

According to Legend it was founded by King Theseus,
but this is also pretty unlikely as its a myth who's source I can't identify and a knowledgeable friend of mine informed me,

Occupation in and around the Athenian region dates as far back as the Neolithic periods. Although, it should be noted that it wasn't until at least the height of the Mycenaean era (i.e. the Late Bronze Age), that Athens was built up and regarded as an important [Mycenaean] site. This was about 1400-1200 BCE. Much like the rest of the Mycenaean sites of ancient Greece, at 1200 BCE, Athens declined in both wealth and power and was economically crippled during the Greek Dark Age; at least for a century or two until it finally stepped into the Iron Age. An attempt to tie Theseus's "founding" of the site at approximately 1200 BCE would be quite the challenge since archaeologically we observe something different. Who knows, while it avoided the same level of destruction that both Mycenae and Pylos suffered, maybe the shift away from Mycenaean control gave rise to a new power/leadership. But if the latter were the case, we do not have the evidence outside of myth. Finding additional archaeological evidence may prove to be an almost impossible endeavor for two similar reasons:
(1) we have the Classical architectures of the acropolis built on top of older foundations,
(2) and the surrounding landscape is occupied by the modern city of the same name.

Which again, tells me when it wasn't founded, but doesn't tell me when it was

I trust him, he's Greek as well, which is always adds to the credibility when asking a Greek question
I am aware that the Athenians claim that the Ionians are their direct ancestors and that they were living in Asia Minor when Sargon the Great was going bonkers with his Army, conquering anything without a big wall

So here's my questions to you
1. who founded Athens
2. Who claimed that Theseus founded Athens

Any help will be greatly appreciated
Thanks

Interesting thread. I would like to add an observation based on personal experience. Greek historians are just as likely to suffer from the same intransigence of view as ordinary Greek people in regard to their national history. Many Greek people will still tell you that Greece was the cradle of civilisation, when that has been conclusively been proved to be incorrect. I am not criticising the pride the Greek people have for their nation and its influence, but it is often so deeply entrenched that it borders on the point of vanity.

I'd look at the Greek system of the language at the time and see what was available

originally posted by: Maxatoria
I'd look at the Greek system of the language at the time and see what was available

Tried that and it didn't help. Mycenaean Greek (15th century BC onwards) is the language of the Greek civilisation, preceeded by proto Greek (not used inside Greece), but none of that attests to a date for the founding of Athens.
Ancient Greek dates from 9th century BCE onwards.

Not sure if this may touch on the history directly but you may be able to scratch out a connection to the gods through it

Ancient Orient and Old Testament
Kenneth A. Kitchen
Lecturer, School of Archaeology
and Oriental Studies, University of Liverpool biblicalstudies.org.uk...

I'm not understanding what you're asking here. The legend is the semi-"official" story of how Athens was founded. I do not blame you a bit for not accepting this legend as "real," but what do you have left? Just the probability that the site where Athens is has been inhabited for a long time, likely since paleolithic times. Where you might be able to find an actual written charter for some place like Philadelphia or Seattle, it's quite natural for any Old World city to have been inhabited for a long time, its actual origins being shrouded in history. Any cross-roads, seaport, or promontory, all three being prominent at Athens, is eligible. Even if you find someone who comes along and says, "I dub thee Athens," you can be sure they took over from whoever was living there before. So how far back do you really want to go here?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Not sure if this may touch on the history directly but you may be able to scratch out a connection to the gods through it

Ancient Orient and Old Testament
Kenneth A. Kitchen
Lecturer, School of Archaeology
and Oriental Studies, University of Liverpool biblicalstudies.org.uk...

The Greek gods were pretty standard for a culture that had its origins in Asia minor, compare

Hesiod's Theogony 750 and 650 BCE
en.wikipedia.org...

Gaia created a great stone sickle and gathered together Cronus and his brothers to persuade them to castrate Uranus.[1]
Only Cronus was willing to do the deed, so Gaia gave him the sickle and placed him in ambush.[2] When Uranus met with Gaia, Cronus attacked him with the sickle, castrating him and casting his testicles into the sea. From the blood that spilled out from Uranus and fell upon the earth, the Gigantes, Erinyes, and Meliae were produced.

The Hittite version of the Hurrian Kumarbi myth 14th or 13th century BCE
en.wikipedia.org...

Alalu was overthrown by Anu who was in turn overthrown by Kumarbi. When Anu tried to escape, Kumarbi bit off his genitals and spat out three new gods. In the text Anu tells his son that he is now pregnant with the Teshub, Tigris, and Tašmišu. Upon hearing this Kumarbi spit the semen upon the ground and it became impregnated with two children. Kumarbi is cut open to deliver Tešub. Together, Anu and Teshub depose Kumarbi

The Athenians claimed to be direct descendants of the Ionians

originally posted by: schuylerSo how far back do you really want to go here?

I have a claim that it was founded as a city in 2500bce, which has zero support, for my research I would like that answer to be correct, but it doesn't matter if it isn't...
To be able to say definitively that it wasn't 2500BCE would be just as good
Ideally some sort of law code or proclamation, would clinch it, the major problem here is that I am not at all familiar with Greek history, which is why I'm asking for help.

Should have added this to my previous post, but it has always interested me that the ancient Greek statuary looks NOTHING like the present day inhabitants. When you look at pictures of Zeus, Athena, Juno,, Hermes, and all those other Greek gods that were prominent in their pantheon, they look nothing like present day Greeks. As handsome and good looking as present day Greeks tend to be, they are shorter and darker than those statues. When you add the ancient pictures as shown on vases and ancient art, what you have are two different populations. The present day population must have at some time invaded and taken over greater Greek territory.

originally posted by: schuyler
Should have added this to my previous post, but it has always interested me that the ancient Greek statuary looks NOTHING like the present day inhabitants. When you look at pictures of Zeus, Athena, Juno,, Hermes, and all those other Greek gods that were prominent in their pantheon, they look nothing like present day Greeks. As handsome and good looking as present day Greeks tend to be, they are shorter and darker than those statues. When you add the ancient pictures as shown on vases and ancient art, what you have are two different populations. The present day population must have at some time invaded and taken over greater Greek territory.

Sorry, I'm not touching that one with a bargepole

a reply to: Marduk

The worship of Baal was popular in Egypt from the later New Kingdom in about 1400 bce to its end (1075 bce). Through the influence of the Aramaeans, who borrowed the Babylonian pronunciation Bel, the god ultimately became known as the Greek Belos, identified with Zeus.

www.britannica.com...

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Marduk

The worship of Baal was popular in Egypt from the later New Kingdom in about 1400 bce to its end (1075 bce). Through the influence of the Aramaeans, who borrowed the Babylonian pronunciation Bel, the god ultimately became known as the Greek Belos, identified with Zeus.

www.britannica.com...

Zeus was identified with a whole bucket loads of Gods though, from memory I can recall at least five, Ammon, Jupiter, Enlil, Bel Hadad, Tinia, Indra, even YHWH, but I don't think the last one is really credible

a reply to: Marduk

Marduk,

That is indeed a question that is difficult to find an answer to. I know because I too have looked into it.
And it does depend on whom you ask. The earliest political entity known at the site that became athens was is most certainly Mycenaen, but it was abandoned during the late bronze age collapse and was little more than a goat herders camp for a century or two, so it really has There has been intermittent occupations in the area for at least 5-7k years.

I believe i have a paper on some early archeology in the area, and even though you are consistantly a jerk to me, I will see if i can dig it up


While looking into answering your question,I ran across some interesting info, and maybe you can shed some light upon it.
It seems Akkadian was spoken in Ugarit, do the Akkadians mention Ugarit?, before the fall of Akkad or is the connection after the fall during the time Akkadian was spoken as the "lingua franca" of region?

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Marduk

Marduk,

That is indeed a question that is difficult to find an answer to. I know because I too have looked into it.
And it does depend on whom you ask. The earliest political entity known at the site that became athens was is most certainly Mycenaen, but it was abandoned during the late bronze age collapse and was little more than a goat herders camp for a century or two, so it really has There has been intermittent occupations in the area for at least 5-7k years.

This I hear repeatedly, the crux of the argument is in either proving an ancient source of 2500BCE accurate or completely nonsensical.

originally posted by: punkinworks10

I believe i have a paper on some early archeology in the area, and even though you are consistantly a jerk to me, I will see if i can dig it up

My jerkiness is a reaction to yours. I am reacting to you. We can bury that right here if you like...

originally posted by: punkinworks10
While looking into answering your question,I ran across some interesting info, and maybe you can shed some light upon it.
It seems Akkadian was spoken in Ugarit, do the Akkadians mention Ugarit?, before the fall of Akkad or is the connection after the fall during the time Akkadian was spoken as the "lingua franca" of region?

The Akkadians and the Sumerians mentioned the Amorites all the time, "Amurru", Ugarit was an Amorite stronghold. Naram Sin (son of Sargon the Great) famously kicked the crap out of them and Hammurabi's father was one of them.

I would imagine that they started using Akkadian around the same time and for the same reason that everyone else did
Picture may illustrate exactly the reason

Ugarit is represented by the red cross
Akkadian became the Lingua Franca in Egypt and everywhere else around 1400BCE, which is a thousand years after Sargon was dead and buried



Incredibly, you just enabled me to answer my own question. the 2500BCE claim is utter nonsense
Anyone see why that is ?

originally posted by: schuyler
Should have added this to my previous post, but it has always interested me that the ancient Greek statuary looks NOTHING like the present day inhabitants. When you look at pictures of Zeus, Athena, Juno,, Hermes, and all those other Greek gods that were prominent in their pantheon, they look nothing like present day Greeks. As handsome and good looking as present day Greeks tend to be, they are shorter and darker than those statues. When you add the ancient pictures as shown on vases and ancient art, what you have are two different populations. The present day population must have at some time invaded and taken over greater Greek territory.

I would take a stab at that. When we compare the Egyptian representations of the human form in the ancient art of that nation, we can clearly see that the people then either looked completely different or decided to represent themselves as different from the way they actually looked. Based on what we can see they either looked very similar to the Persians of that time or chose to represent themselves as such, coincidentally or otherwise.

Egypt experienced colonisation/migration from other areas and the difference we see between the Ancient Greek representations and today's Greek people, we could conclude that what took place in Egypt, or something very similar might have happened in Greece, or they also represented themselves and their gods as different looking from how they actually saw themselves.


Moving on.

Migration from the peoples of the Anatolian plane at the beginning of the agricultural period as sea levels lowered and coastal marshland became farmable might explain who founded the original city. The Hittite influence could be significance as after all they (the Hittites) were later described as the people of a thousand gods, and known to, and traded with inhabitants of Eastern Mediterranean coastal regions in the time of the biblical patriarchs.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

Thanks for contributing. I knew the risks of my query in this hyper-sensitive world. I was also thinking migration from the northeast might have been a factor, given what happened to Rome in the 5th century. BTW I've been to Athens and toured Greece a couple of times now. A most impressive place and very rugged territory.

a reply to: schuyler

I spent some time choosing how to present my answer to you because, like you, I have travelled extensively in Greece, and as I said they are proud, to the point of being slightly over sensitive regarding their History.

a reply to: Marduk
This may, in fact, be two separate questions;
Who provided the original population?
Who provided the original rulers?
The two questions may have different answers; think of the example of Russia, a Slavic state founded by incoming Swedes.
In the legends, there is much talk of heroes arriving in Greece by sea, from Tyre, Crete, Egypt, Libya. This may be a clue to the origins of early dynasties, even if the basic populations were land-migrants from the north.

Apart from the ethnic issue, my understanding is that Athens was not "founded", as such, but was the product of the process known as "synoecism", the amalgamation of local villages into one larger community. Foundation legends come later.

originally posted by: schuyler
The present day population must have at some time invaded and taken over greater Greek territory.

This was the theory of Fallmerayer, the 19th Century German who argued that modern Greeks were all descended from Slavs who had drifted into the area after the collapse of the Roman empire.
Needless to say, he made himself very unpopular in Greece.

If I'm reading this right the Greeks were descended from ancient Turks? No wonder they hate each other so much perhaps their story is similar to Ishmael/isaac....