why are you bringing India in ufo topics

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Really, if we are suppose to be discussing India, it's better suited to a political discussion....

talks about 800 million poor people, which is bull, in reality it's less than half of that.

He does not mention that more than 300 million Indians is a techno-savvy middle class.

If you rank the poor nations in the world. India would not even rank in the top 200. It's a misonception that India is poor. A country with a purchasing power parity of $3.3 trillion is far from poor. It means it's the 4th most economically strong country in the world and in 5 years will exceed Japan's economy. [edit on 1-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Before I address these particular comments, let me first say that you make a very solid case as to why ETs would take particular interest in the Indian subcontinent.

Now... while I agree that this discussion is better suited to another forum, please understand I also am inclined to address a couple partciulars from your post:

First, from Indiaonestop.com: "India still has the world’s largest number of poor people in a single country. Of its nearly 1 billion inhabitants, an estimated 350-400 million are below the poverty line, 75 per cent of them in the rural areas.

While this validates your assertion regarding the estimated number of poor in India, this estimation is per the poverty line as established by relative economies of scale as they apply to India.

A better qualifier is by use of UN-generated statistics which take such dicsriminators into account:

From the 2004 U.N Human Development Report, India ranks 127th in the world... out of 191 recognized nations.

Think about that: 127th? For a country with so much supposed purchasing power, this number is unacceptable.

But what about that "purchasing power?" from the very CIA World Factbook you referenced: "Despite strong growth, the World Bank and others worry about the continuing public-sector budget deficit, running at approximately 60% of GDP."

Some other numbers as they pertain to India's ranking in the world:

40% : Both the percentage of India's population that is illiterate, as well as the percentage of the world's poor living in India. (source: UN)

156th : India's global economic ranking in terms of GDP per capita (also from the CIA World Fact Book)

55th : India's ranking as per the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Index and as reported on an Indian news journal... their headline even reads, "Even Namibia is ahead of India."

warthog91,

What is alien tech? If that is blanket term for "advanced technology" then perhaps I need to educate you about India's science and projects in the cutting edge of research, which alone will dispell your misconceptions about India being a "third world country" If you really are from India, please note the irony of a westerner telling you about your own countries achievements and projects and being able to appreciate it.

Achivements and projects:

Geostationary space launch vehicle(GLSV)
Hypersonic space plane
Aircraft construction(LCA, ALH)
Cruise missle construction(Brahmos)
3 Teraflop(1000 gigaflops) supercomputer(Param)
Shape memory alloys
Humanoid Robots
Superconductivity and cryogenics
Nano drug-delivery medicine
Nanotechnology
Industrial CO2 Lasers and plasma physics
Particle accelerators/cyclotron
Stem cells
Quantum computing: sif.iisc.ernet.in...

You mentioned stealth. What you don't know is that both Russia and India are currently working on a stealth fighter. Overal, this shows that India is amongst the top 5 advanced countries, technologically speaking, in the world. No, not a third world country.

Check this Article out. Some techtonic plates are acting weird along with sightings in the Andaman Nicobar Island area.

Anybody hear anything about this.

indiadaily.com...

Sdrumrunner, I don't usually put any capitol in these ranks and numbers. Per capita income just shows that the average Indian earns less than his western counterpart and that is actually India strong point, that it can provide cheap highly skilled labor.

What is more important is it's economic power, measured by it's PPP relative to the US dollar. And it is the worlds 4th biggest economy.

What gives a country power are three aspects; military, technology and economy and India excels in all departments. This makes it a world power and soon a superpower. US, Japan and EU recognise this, hence why they are engaging India.

Yes, I know the average Indian does not benefit much from this. An average Indian will only develop from a social security system, which the Indian governmening is currently planning. As I learnt while in India on work, that India is an elitist and captialist society and there is lot of social and economic disparity and the poor are neglected in favor of the technocrats.

I knew this when I walked into Mcdonalds in India, the price of a meal(burger, fries and drink) was 99 rupees. That's $2.2 more or less the same as American prices. The average Indian cannot afford this. For him, the idea of a burger is what the cheaper stalls give out on the road side for 5 rupees. I noticed that every Indian multiplex, mall, shopping arcades and department stores and supermarkets had the same kind of expensive prices. I thought, what good is this, if 70% of Indians cannot afford it. There were very modern malls, supermarkets and multiplexes all over Delhi and they were building more. Yet, I was not impressed, rather disgusted that the common man could not use them.

I thought it was extremely unfair. However, these malls, fast food chains, multiplexes, malls and shopping arcades had no problem with business, they were always overflowing with with the middle class and rich Indians.

This is unfortunately how it is. It's the system. And as I said, corruption and elitism is present in every society, not just India.

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Indigo_Child, sdrummer, well said, I'm taken back on your depth of knowledge.. As well as others in various topics. Thank you for efforts!

I-C,

I sincerely appreciate the discussion. In fact, if we lived in the general vicinity relative to one another, I'd be the first to invite you over to our house for dinner. Hopefully, we may set an example for others who have may at times have difficulty distinguishing between a "discussion" and an "argument."

Furthermore, you cannot dispute the fact that when ranked by GDP, India does, in fact, have the world's 4th largest economy.

However, the size of India's economy and the status of any given ISRO project (read: technological progress) are mutually exclusize indicators and are of themselves inadequate benchmarks against which to emasure India's status as a developed country.

The U.N. Human Development report, however, is the globally accepted ruler against which a nation's comprehensive development is measured.

And just as when measured by GDP, you cannot argue India's ranking as the 4th largest GDP in the world, as per the U.N. 2004 HDI report, their ranking of 127th is equally indisputable. Furthermore, the fact they slipoped ten spaces in the ranking does not speak too well for the current state of development.

Furthermore, with the rise of the Congress Party to power, you are sure to see the following: 1. A slip in GDP growth per annum; 2. The relocation of many multinational IT companies due to the coming expiration of tax breaks in the state of Karnataka to be phased in over the next half-decade.

You need not believe me. Contact K. Subramanyam of the Economic Times. He is considered the leading print journalist in India, and was the sole scribe to be given exclusive interviews with both Bill Gates and Bill Clinton. The gentleman even interviewed me once quite some time ago. Or ask Azim Premji, founder (and majority owner) of Wipro and richest man in India. Wipro was one of our clients in my former occupation. He'll be the last one to claim India's place as "one of the most advanced" countries in the world. I've met with him in person on several occasions. You mention McDonalds. May I also suggest you contact Mr. David Lobo, the gentleman who holds the monopoly on poultry (and egg) supply to McDonalds in India. We were in business together. Or his partner, Sanjay das Gupta, former IT Minister of the State of Karnataka, and former working associate of mine. While in office, during the height of India's IT boom, Sanjay was once considered the 5th-most powerful politician in India. Or I could introduce you to my wife's cousin, an advocate in the Supreme Court in New Delhi. He'll tell you just how likely it is things will really change anytime soon...

I mention these persons not for the sake of dropping names, but because they are people with whom I either currently or at one time have or had a close working relationship, and persons with an in-depth working knowledge of the current and likely future state on India's economy.

A rich despot could keep a core group of individuals to pursue technological advancement, but if you step fromt he foot of his palace to the heart of the slums in which the people live, then you are not in a modern, developed nation. A nation is only developed when the development impacts all oif society.

Technically speaking, the U.N ranks India as a "middle-development" nation. This is a far cry from being one of the most advanced and modernized societies in the world!

Ahead of India on the Human Development Index: Namibia, Nicuragua, Morocco, Gabon, Guatemala, Mongolia, Tajikstan, Honduras, Guyana, El Salvador, Algeria, Equtorial Guinea... need I go on?

While technically speaking they are a "middle-developmetn" nation, I revert back to my original statement, that forced to choose between a "modern, developed" status and "thriud-world" status,I would have to choose "third world" every time!

You know, when I first started seeing the India/UFO topic appear on ATS (some time before I even registered ), I asked my sister-in-law, as well as both my mother- and father-in-law if they had heard anything about the subject. Would you believe they responded in the same way as the author in his original post!

Please pardon the misspellings in my previous post... my fingers can't keep up with my mind!

Sdrumrunner,

Yes, likewise And I would love dinner.

I think it is very important that we distinguish between power and social-economic development. I appreciate absolutely where you are coming from and also agree with it. India does need to develop further, and no one argues against that. However, it is developing and the information technology boom is faciliating the development. The outstanding growth of the economy is creating more jobs and opportunites. The educational system is also becoming more accomodating for the average Indian. It will happen gradually and slowly. It could happen faster, but for that to occurr India would have to shift it's policies from technology, research and defence to infrastructure and social development, and if t did this, it would be costly. The truth is, India is involved in a race with China for "superpowerdom" and by conceding it's position, it will just allow China to widen the gap and become the sole hegemon of Asia. This is not in Indian interests if I hazarded a guess at Indian foreign policy.

Technology has been very important for India, because it has enabled it to skip intermediate stages of development. A case in point: A few years ago, the average Indian could not afford their own personal telephone. Today, with the spread of cell-phone technology, even a Rickshaw driver can have a cell-phone. Indian technological research into quantum computing, shape memory alloys, aritificial intelligence and hypersonic space planes is going to have a very positive effect on India. Most importantly, alternative energy generation could make electricity more viable and less costly for the average Indian, effectively, increasing the numbers of homes with reliable electricity.

I personally think it is very important for India to continue it's techno-centric economical policies. I know it comes at the expense of the average Indian, but in the long term, the average Indian will greatly benefit from it.

We are discussing whether a space-intelligence would be interested in India. Now, I ask, would the space-intelligence be gauging India by UN human development statistics before it initates contact? If rumours are to be believed China and Russian also have some form of contact with space intelligence. These countries also do not rank highly on the human development index either.

I would imagine an alien intelligence would give more priority to the following:

1. Defence and Offensive capabilities
2. Power projection(political, economic and military)
3. Technology and research capabilities
4. Resources
5. Nuclear and space abilities

The latter, nuclear and space abilities, is the most important. Because it means that a space faring nuclear nation would inevitably(if assumed space is teeming with alien races) come in contact with them. Therefore, the alien race would have no choice but to initiate contact to brief the nation on space protocols. Henceforth, why India would have to be contacted, because it a space and nuclear power and it intends to embark on moon missions.

Further, if alien races wanted to collaborate with humans on certain projects, it would be important for them that the nations involved have adequate technological infrastructure and scientists and technicians. In these aspects, India is amongst the best in the world. It therefore does make a lot of sense that ET's would contact and engage India.

Another reason, for a more spiritually attuned civilization, is that India is also the most spiritual society in the world and is home to a diversity of cultures. It is also a history of a very advanced civilization in the past that possibly was in contact with them before. A case of old friends being reaquainted.

Anyhow, I am going to go to bed now. I will see you tomorrow

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

I don't even know whether I should even bother to address the sheer factual wrongness of the guy's post, when in the same breath he describes 'American conventional UFO redlines', as it were.

Let the Kooks be kooky.

Originally posted by merka
I would like to see the US go to war with India.

Like an antlion attacking an anthill. Except the ants got minature nuclear weapons.

What's with this ultranationalistic garbage? The U.S. is a great place to live, but that certainly doesn't mean any other country is inferior. Besides, it's not like the U.S. is better at everything. Indian cellphones for instance are much better than cellphones in the U.S. in general.

Every nation has its day in the sun. India had its day a long time ago, the U.S. is having its day in the sun right now. After a while, some other country, possibly India again, will have its day in the sun and be the superpower to look to.

Originally posted by bhagavadgita
What's with this ultranationalistic garbage? The U.S. is a great place to live, but that certainly doesn't mean any other country is inferior. Besides, it's not like the U.S. is better at everything. Indian cellphones for instance are much better than cellphones in the U.S. in general.

According to Kolhberg, Merka would be in the conventional level of learning. You guys have no clue what I am talking about do you? Thought so. I feel like such a dork.

In other words let him live in small tiny cave and keep saying "Love it or leave it" and stuff like that, because he doesn't better.

Surf

Originally posted by bhagavadgita

Originally posted by merka
I would like to see the US go to war with India.

Like an antlion attacking an anthill. Except the ants got minature nuclear weapons.

What's with this ultranationalistic garbage? The U.S. is a great place to live, but that certainly doesn't mean any other country is inferior. Besides, it's not like the U.S. is better at everything. Indian cellphones for instance are much better than cellphones in the U.S. in general.

Every nation has its day in the sun. India had its day a long time ago, the U.S. is having its day in the sun right now. After a while, some other country, possibly India again, will have its day in the sun and be the superpower to look to.

Actually, I interpreted this as more of an anti-American comment rather than an ultranationalistic comment, as I belive the poster was inferring to the nuclear deterrent India now possesses, which lead me to belive he/she would actually like to see someone use a nuke agaist us.

Either way, yes, it is pure garbage.

And yes, everything is cyclical, though if I was to hazard a guess as to who the next emerging superpower will be, my money would be on China. However, I see both the U.S. and China coexisting in such a role (think US and USSR for a half-century).

Cheaper labor than India, a larger economy, and much further along the development curve -- Shanghai is spectacular, as are Dalian and Beijing, and I would guess most other large metropolitan areas as well... In fact, the biggest barriers standing between China and economic dominance are the language barrier (to be overcome sooner or later), the trustworthiness -- GM is only the most recent American firm to pull out of China due to unfair business practices -- and until they have matured their own domestic market, their economy will continue to be dependent on exports...

In other words, China's emergence as a superpower (or even India's for that matter) in largely contingent on the strength of foreign economies. Without a strong U.S. or E.U., their economies would wither (for instance, the U.S. is responsible for 60% of the revenue generated by the Indian IT industry).

it does seem awfully ironic that the US has all the good weapons, all the money and the geographic locations to hide such things. There isn't any room in India for any top secret p[roject anyway, with all the Dell computer call centers.

It is a third world country where about 800million people are poor farmers and the politicians are corrupt and have criminal charges,the 2ud largest AIDS populated country and why even bring China.USA is the only country which has alien tech eg stealth tech etc and is the most developed country and was the first country which had the ufo buzz.Let me tell you that only America would disclose the ufo info and would threaten to go to war with any country which wants to disclose ufo info and yes i am from india:indiffenent:

1. The main reason you are seeing a lot of India UFO topics is simple, and thanks to ONE website. India Daily. What many DON'T realize, is that this is NOT a reputable news site, and is actually India's equivalent of the Weekly World News. (i.e. stories about Bat Boy, 900lb babies, etc.)

2. India IS a nuclear power, so I'm not so sure the third world label applies....

3. And US politicians aren't corrupt criminals???

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
3. And US politicians aren't corrupt criminals???

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Gazrok]

No matter where you are, politicians and children always remain the same.

In truth, though, the level of corruption (at least at the state and local levels) in India far exceeds the corruption here. Not that I'm letting our politicians off the hook -- to the contrary, they've turned it into a science, with the ability to hide bribes in the form of special interest contributions, etc. However, in India, they've turned it into an art...

I remember reading a rather unusual critique in the Economic Times which stated that for a particular public works project, less than 10 cents on the dollar -- 10% -- of the money allocated to the public works project actually made it to implementation.

However, aside from old second-hand quotes, I'll refer readers to Transparency International's Corruption Index for 2004. This index quantifies the level of corruption in each UN-recognized nation. In my former occupation, we would use this exact index to help us determine the best locations for off-shore sattelite offices.

As you will see, India is tied for 90th, with a CPI index score of 2.8 (out of 10). Please note the U.S. is tied for 17th with an index rating of 7.5 -- which while substanitally better off than India, still leaves a whole lot of room for improvement.

***

A couple other notes:

1. Thx, jessemole, for your compliment above. Much appreciated.

2. To those who may perceive I have a "bone to pick" with India: Well, yes, in fact, I do. You see, as an outsider, I am free from the positive prejudices which manifest themselves in the form of national pride. Nor am I a tourist, someone sheltered within the confines of beautiful 5-stars, picking up souvenirs and a cheeseburger in Connaught Place (though I, too, remember my first trip to India in 1997, where I "felt" like a tourist, and saw everything with blind eyes). Not only have I lived there for several years, but for better or worse, I am tied to the country for the rest of my life. It is a fair bet that noone wants to see India improve more than I. NRI's know of what I speak -- they know what it is like to have their observations met with beratement, followed by a request for a visa in the same breath...


Edit: as half my dman post was underlined due to my incredibly poor typing skills.

[edit on 2-2-2005 by sdrumrunner]

Isn't the alien way of tradionally making first contact with Americans, not a legacy from Hollywood sci-fi? Well I guess with the emergence of Bollywood comes a bunch of indian UFO sightings as well....




[edit on 2-2-2005 by Countermeasures]

sdrumrunner, if we are going to compare Indian and US bureaucracy. Yes, both are corrupt, but at least you have a working democracy and the vote of the common man counts.

Not, only have you elected a woman twice as your president, you have also elected a foreigner as your president. This is unheard of in US democracy and it trully shows you are the greatest democracy in the world.

In US, the elections there is a lot of foul play in elections, the candidates are pre-selected, there is a lot of nepotism and congress passes legislations without even reading them: patriot act. Americans have far more luxuries, infrastructure and electricity than India, but what good is this, when they have their civil rights taken away one by one and where they are terrorized by police.

India maybe lesser developed, but it has something that 50% of Americans today would trade in anything for - a democracy. To put this into perspective, the average poor Indian has more power than the average American.

Further, you left India to goto US. You might really regret that in the future.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Not, only have you elected a woman twice as your president, you have also elected a foreigner as your president. This is unheard of in US democracy and it trully shows you are the greatest democracy in the world.

No we didn't. We never elected the foreigner as a prime minster (we still British system, where Prime Minister has more power than President). We elected the party of the foreigner to power, actually that party has been in power more than any other and has been the party of many leaders.

Our current prime minister is an Indian born economist. Actually the foreigener was going to get the post, but she realized that their gov't will be overthrown (legally ofcourse) anyway, so she decided to make way for her future generations to come to power.

The main reason the foreigner has won because she was the wife of the assasinated late prime minister.

Surf

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
To put this into perspective, the average poor Indian has more power than the average American.

Further, you left India to goto US. You might really regret that in the future.

Hi I_C ,

I dispute both statements.

With regards to the first statement, this is simply untrue (read: wrong). Any Indian not blinded by national pride, any NRI, or any foreigner who has spent any appreciable time in India will tell you the same.

Here, anyone can approach their elected official and ask for assistance. I had said in another thread -- and will repeat here again -- though I am nobody here, I have not once, not twice, but on several ocassions approached my local congressman due to either problems with other governmental agencies or issues with which I felt it important to approach my local representative for assistance.

On each occasion, I was contacted by his Chief of Staff, who, on each occasion, invited me to the congressman's office to bring my beef to the table. And on each occasion, my issue was resolved. I should also note that never once have I donated a single penny to his campaign cause.

Try doing that with an MLA in India! Ha! It will get you nowhere unless you can give him or her something in return. Please... Indian MLAs are at least as bad as their American counterparts. Again, I ask that if you don't believe me, you ask someone who does know who you will believe, as your statement that the average Indian has more power than the average American is not only wrong, but couldn't be further from the truth. Life is not valued nearly as much in India as it is here (I have included a couple more factoids below to illustrate this).

Now, as someone who was only a tourist in India once, and for long after a resident, as someone who has actually lived there for several years, as someone who has actually met with former PM Vajpayee as well as leaders of industry, as someone who has appeared in front of the national media in India, and as someone who is tied through marriage to the country for the rest of my life, I really do not know how else to assure you of the following:

I have a more qualified frame of reference regarding the subject than yourself. I do not mean this in any condescending way whatsoever.

I'm just beginning to tire in my efforts to help you understand that India is neither the Magic Kingdom nor Heaven on Earth. Whether or not you accept the fact that my opinion is in fact highly qualified -- most likely more so than you own, is completely up to you.

BTW, the foreigner they elected, Sonja Ghandi, was for the post of PM, not president, and in fact created such a ruckus and uproar that she stepped down, and appointed the former finance minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh, in her place... all because she was foreign-born.

In India, who you know is far more important that one's rights as an individual.

Now, before I am once again told that the reason the toast fell "butter-side up" instead of "butter-side down" is because I have buttered the wrong side, please let me proactively state that I ask that you first spend an appreciable length of time in India -- not as a tourist sheltered in the 5-stars and a/c cabs, mind you, but actually living there like a local so you may have as qualified a frame of reference as do I. Again, I say this with all due repsect.

However, before I sign off, let me share the following:

* 4 women per day in Bangalore alone die as a result of dowlry-related homocide.

* Infanticide is still a major problem both in the metropolitan and rural areas of India, i.e., throughout the country. From indiachild.com: "According to a recent report by the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) up to 50 million girls and women are missing from India' s population as a result of systematic gender discrimination in India. Now, given this is an Indian web site, written and hosted by people from India, are you going to tell them they are mistaken as well?

* In 2003, India led the world in international terrorist attacks -- with more than Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, in 2004, India was listed by Aon as the "most dangerous place to conduct business in the world." Click here for more.

* In Bangalore, testing done by the city in 2003 revealed that nearly three-quarters -- 75% of the pottable water supply was infected with potentially fatal viral and bacteriological agents.

* The caste system is nothing other than systemic, institutionalized racism, and limits one's social and professional opportunities to this very day. Please... things there are not nearly as nice and wonderful as you claim!

Want to live there? Please...

Again I will repeat: With the election of the Congress Party to power, and the soon-to-expire tax breaks for multinational IT companies, the IT boom in India is over. There will always be off-shore s/w development there, but simply because of the supply of labor. Multinational companies that have better alternatives are either exploring and/or taking them. Just last year, Intel reallocated $300 million of investment capital that was originally marked for India to their Latin American operations. And they are just the beginning. Call centers and BPO/BOP operations are the "fast-food" equivalent of the IT industry, with little staying power.

The fact is progress is awfully slow, and those actually "in the know" would tell you that despite Abdul Kalam's goal of modernizing India by 2020, (BTW, he is the president, and is not foreign born, but homegrown right in Tamil Nadu), we'll be lucky to see it happen in our lifetime.

Unless you know something that I, my family, and the leaders of Industry and those deeply invovled in pursuing change do not, I do not see how all of us can be so wrong in our very qualified assessment regarding the state of affairs in India...

If, on the other hand, there is some special insight you hold that has somehow managed to escape the attention of politicians and industrial leaders who are actually pushing for said change, please do tell, as myself as well as my family and colleagues there would all be ecstatic to hear.

It's nice to see how the original thread starter, tough displaying himself as a disrespectfull troll, got a sensible and insightfull discussion started instead of some planned paki-indo flamewar....

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Countermeasures]