Government Involvement in Terror Attacks

I don’t see a conspiracy in what happened at Waco.

The FBI and the ATF were too cavalier and messed up, resulting in a tragic loss of life.

Was there something more sinister at work?

esdad
Not to be rude but..you just described fully a quarter of the population of Utah.

I don't see flame throwing tanks knocking down trailers on the outskirts of Salt Lake City. I don't see tear gas rounds going through the windows of US Servicemen in Thailand who take advantage of the 'Local Delicacies.' I don't see helicopter news coverage of the Bohemian Grove parties, to insure against this sort of debauchery.

The guns were never used to commit a crime, why are they relevant?

And lastly, in my opinion, the reason the cultists didn't run out of the burning building - there were a bunch of government thugs with guns waiting outside to incarcerate or kill them. I myself would have drawn a bath and breathed through a straw if necessary, or I would have

Selective prosecution is worse than none at all, because of the power displacement it creates.

I am not saying that a Mormon lifestyle is incorrect if that was your implication, but this is pure manipulation on the part of Koresh with those children. It is one thing to question the actions of the ATF/FBI, and another to defend Koresh.

When the warrant was served, they were not overzealous, they were prepared and cautious. Would you want to serve a warant (for felony gun violations) on a compound known to have 50 cal machine guns and over 200 or so other weapons?

There was tragic, very tragic loss of life on the part of the children and the ATF/FBI that day. As in all media, we can never truly see both sides of the coin.

you see documentry on koresh? all those people willing were there on there own accord.and the girls as wives koresh had were all given consent by the parents.i believe in texas 14 years old is the minimul age to marry a female.they seemed like a very peaceful bunch of people.as far as weapons.that is also supposedly legal in texas and is a way to make money at gun shows ect.............. to be totally self sufficient.the people of texas,"christians" especially the GOVERNMENT does not like ANYONE FREE AND INDEPENDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYONE THAT DOES NOT COMPLETELY DEPEND ON THEM FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO YOU GET THE FREAKING PICTURE????????????? HUH?????????? AMERICA IS THE NEXT NAZI GERMANY.

I you feel it is OK to let your daughter who is 14 marry a man who believes he is a prophet, and then don body armor to defend yourselfs, and then shoot the children instead of helping them escape, that is your own perogative.

However, I find it to be disgusting. If a girl is 15, and she ahs a boyfriend who is 19, and she gets pregnant, that is grounds for an acceptable marriage. I don't think you have a child to make the statements you did.


Our government was serving a warrant on this...

FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta
13 Glock
8 Assorted Revolvers
6 Safari Arms
6 Assorted Pistols
5 Sig Sauer
5 Walther
2 Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers.
Flash Suppressors
18 Flash Suppressors

usgovinfo.about.com...


This is why it is necessary to step in and take corrective measure. I don't remember the last time I took my H&K assault rifle hunting.

Now, before I hear anything about right to bear arms, there are limits. You can be a gun collector, and you can get ready for Armegeddon, but how many guns do you need????






[edit on 2-2-2005 by esdad71]

Did you notice the item marked 'Air Rifle?'

It looks like the ATF just compiled a list of weapons they bought without bothering to knock on the door in a friendly manner and ask to see the proper identification. What happened after can be blamed equally on religious zealoutry and political cowardice.

Sorry, I didn't see air rifle...I couldn't get past FN FAL before I blinked in disbelief....

This was serious weaponry. and the government did give chance to surrender, but if memory serves correct, he had to complete a "manifesto about the Seven seals". Sorry man, the means to go in do not justify the death, but it was their choice. This was a stand-off for quite a while....

I'd like to know who’s brainchild it was to set the complex on fire.

Surely they could have ‘starved them out’ instead. Sure, it would have taken longer but the risk to life would have been infinitely smaller.

Originally posted by Clandestine
This is a question for those who are sceptical about government involvement in terror attacks around the globe:

If another Terrorist attack, on the same scale (or bigger) than 9/11, occured on US soil and is used a pretext for declaring war on Iran

If there were immediate repercussions, like going to war with Iran, or another country he already wanted to go to war with, but previously had no real excuse, no matter how big or small the "terrorist attack" was, I'd be almost positive that U.S. government was involved.

Also, especially if it also led to another piece of legislation as evil as the Patriot Act, or worse, I would have no doubt.

Waco was a tragedy. I am sure that the FBI and members of the ATF go to bed at night knowing that things didnt go right. Im going to leave it at that. May it never happen again.

As far as 911, as I have stated before, that was marriage made in heaven for the terrorists as well as the US.

There were people above who knew of this operation. Not Bush, but some people right below him. The people that flew those craft were somehow allowed to go under the security radar and get a shot at their lofty goals with the silent go ahead of not being stopped.

We needed a position in the middle east, we had a reason to go there, and Bush, I beleive was seriously decieved by some veterans in his cabinet who fed him with bad material.

This thing absolutely smells to high heaven,but gentlemen, like JFK; Im not sure I want to know the truth. It could rip apart our country as well as our trust of our government. If that occurs, what would we do?

Michael Moore is on to something. But careful what you ask for, you might get pandoras box with a can of whoopass. I enjoy the freedom of being able to voice potential theorys, but fear the truth at times as some of these things I somehow wish not to know. Does that make sense?
Let these events serve more as resolve to increase our awareness more as citizens so events like Mcveigh can be got early as well as other tragedys. A safer America starts with you, it isnt just homeland security, or local law enforcement or the FBI. Its the power of all of us ants together that build something the might be impossible to destroy. United we stand.
Tommorows a new day.



[edit on 3-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
This thing absolutely smells to high heaven,but gentlemen, like JFK; Im not sure I want to know the truth. It could rip apart our country as well as our trust of our government. If that occurs, what would we do?

That’s a very interesting point.

If there was government involvement in 9/11 and the truth came out, what would the result be?

Anarchy, Marshal Law? Probably both.

Would the perpetrators in the government get the chair? Who, or what would fill the power vacuum left behind?

Anyone other ATS’ers out there not want to know the truth?

That was a very good post Hifiguy, about the president and members of his cabinet, as well as some major corporations and influence.

I do not feel as our government 'let' 9/11 happen, as much as I beleive they royally f#$ked up, and it occured in the manner it did. There are lots of places in the govermental ladder for things to get lost, changed, manipulated or overlooked.

People within our goverment knew the hijackers were here, but maybe not what they were doing here, what the ultimate goal was? I don'tthink they supplied them any assistance, they were just under the radar and it bit us in the ass, hard. Just as I feel there are individuals now that they (govt agencies) must be shadowing within our own country now.

Do we want to know the truth? I think most people today are more concerned with this weeks Idol winner than whether Rummy and Dick and running the white house....

Originally posted by Britguy
If government agencies can set-up, fund and arm terrorist/guerilla groups to fight on foreign soil, to help their political aspirations and corporate interests in that particular geographic location, then why should we believe they would never do the same on their own soil?

If innocent lives lost to these "proxy" groups mean so little to them as long as they help their aims then why should they care any more about the lives of the people whose interests they are in office to represent. It needn't be Americans commiting terrorist acts on American soil or against the American people but proxy groups are deniable and expendable once the deed is done. And hey, if you then shoot it out with the "terrorists" and kill them all, you score more brownie points in the eyes of the people for swift retribution.
A terrorist cell carrying out an act may not even know who is ultimately behind that act and who set-up and funded it. Simple false-flag ops.

Hasn't it always been that way?

Yes, I totally agree. It has always been that way.