I was in Palmdale and the Chem-trail pollution was off the charts

The person who claimed these two planes had been clearly identified as commercial flights, held this up as proof of being contrails. Not chemtrails.

But I then showed him that they are NOT commercial flights, as he'd claimed.


It proved his claim, so it now proves the opposite claim, as well.

Ignoring it isn't an option.

It's not that any of you think chemtrails don't exist, or that chemtrails wouldn't cause any problems, being so far above us, winds blow, scatter, disperse all trails.

(These trails DO NOT 'blow away with winds'. They stay, and cover the sky.)

It's not that you think a chemtrail would be quite harmless, anyhow.

What bothers me is something is constantly being sprayed high above me, and/or all around me, almost daily, by some type of unidentified aircraft.

You act like they would never spray chemicals above people...

Agent Orange, among others, don't count!!??

Nobody is spraying any poisons on us, of course!!

a reply to: turbonium1

The original claim (read the title of the thread) is they're chemtrails.

But I'm hardly surprised you didn't post any evidence. You never do. You also ignore all evidence for contrails that's been posted in this thread and go on mindless rants.

So, where's your evidence chemtrails exist?

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: turbonium1

The original claim (read the title of the thread) is they're chemtrails.

But I'm hardly surprised you didn't post any evidence. You never do. You also ignore all evidence for contrails that's been posted in this thread and go on mindless rants.

So, where's your evidence chemtrails exist?

The person who started this thread claims they're chemtrails, but the ORIGINAL claim is they're contrails.

The ORIGINAL claim is that these are all contrails, which have been left by planes for decades.

Unless you are suggesting the original claim was that these are chemtrails, because nobody had ever described them before?

It was always claimed, from day one, that these ARE contrails. The chemtrails claim was first brought up many years later.


But nice try.

Again, the original claim is that these are contrails. The term 'contrail' was first used in the 1940's, a shortened version of the term 'condensation trail'. It was also called a 'vapour trail'.

The claim of being chemtrails only goes back about 20 years ago, perhaps the late 1990's.

You cannot wriggle out of this.

Now, when someone in your group posted a video of two planes leaving trails, he claimed they were contrails. He then presented his evidence of his claim, which were two commercial flights.

So here you have someone who was trying to support his claim with evidence, which is the proper thing to do.

When I showed him that it was NOT evidence of these being commercial planes, he should have admitted it. Because it is, again, the proper thing to do. I do not respect someone who hides from his own evidence, as it is cowardly. I don't care if he has proof, or not, but at least I'd expect him to answer me.

It's odd that he would carefully research his 'evidence', which took time and effort on his part, and then present it, with flight numbers, and dates, and times....but leave out the actual flight data. And leave out the actual time each plane departed from the US.

He said the lines were based on the actual flights, which were generated with a flight app simulation. So where is the actual flight data? No answer. What data is used to generate the lines? No answer. What time did the two planes leave? No answer.


If that's how your side deals with reality, I feel very sad for you.

I'll ask Soylent Green one more time to answer for himself, and for his own 'evidence'...

Have you seen the actual data for these two flights? Yes or no.

If you have, why haven't you shown it?
If you have not, then admit it.

Why would you have claimed the planes were only a few miles away from Vancouver, if you didn't have any data on the actual positions of the planes? Either you are trying to hide the data, or you do not have the data, and simply making up a story about where the planes were. Which is it?

I don't expect you to answer any of this, like usual.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: waynos

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: waynos
a reply to: turbonium1

You claim that you'll admit you are wrong if shown to be. How about the fact that in two posts now you have failed to acknowledge that I have proven two or three claims of yours to be wrong? How about adressing that to allow the discussion to move on.

If you don't remember, go back and read the posts.

I've admitted that I was wrong about something, which was that some planes fly nearby the Canadian border, during flights.

I have no problem with admitting to any mistakes, errors. WHY CAN'T EVEN ONE OF YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO SIMPLY ADMIT TO A MISTAKE??

As an example, your side estimated the planes were 12 miles away from his position. Which is directly over Richmond, YVR.

Your side knows this, but cannot admit anything.

To find someone who refuses to ever admit to any of their own mistakes, just look in a mirror.

What you claim to have admitted to was not something i ever wrote about. I'm talking about where I directly addressed claims made by YOU.

The thing you want me to admit to getting wrong is also something i have not written about in this thread at all.

Is this how you debate?

I'm referring to the video posted by someone on your side of the issue, and he's never answered my questions. It may not be from you, but it IS your side that has claimed it.

If you don't agree with what he posted, then it's time you said so. If you DO agree with him, time you said so.

You try to avoid the whole matter, since you didn't bring it up.

You can't twist it around, after the fact.

What???

I'm not on here as part of a team, I'm here as an individual with a general interest in the topic. I didn't watch the video as that particular argument didn't interest me, I've see so many arguments from people who can't read FR24 effectively and so misinterpret what it shows that I simply skipped over that part as it was boring the pants off me, so I cant comment on it and your attempt to press me to do so are plain dishonest.

I entered this thread with a direct response, from ME, to wildly inaccurate claims and supposition posted byYOU. Facts don't have sides, they can either support or demolish an argument. You are clearly no more then a game player, as your continual evasiveness and sidelining illustrate, so well leave that there, you simply aren't going to acknowledge what was pointed out, we both know it. Nothing is going to get debated here. Bye.

# it

a reply to: turbonium1
Yeah, you're right, you win.

Two unidentified aircraft that have nothing better to do and money to burn just fly over you spraying all day. I hear that what they spray makes you an irrational paranoid schizophrenic. Wear a mac and buy some cures from those nice helpful chemtrail websites, that TPTB has no issues with exposing their secret operation on the net and never shuts down, won't you.

Yeah, agent orange! Apparently, if they spray from seven miles higher it works seven times better!

I'm done with this idiotic bull#

Jesus wept.

a reply to: turbonium1

How can the original claim be they're contrails when the OP is saying they're chemtrails?

But I notice you didn't post any evidence they're chemtrails. Typical you.

As for the historical original claim they're contrails? Yeah, it's called science. I know you're unfamiliar with it, but you might want to read through the thread and all the links that have been posted.

originally posted by: turbonium1
I'll ask Soylent Green one more time to answer for himself, and for his own 'evidence'...

Have you seen the actual data for these two flights? Yes or no.

If you have, why haven't you shown it?
If you have not, then admit it.

Why would you have claimed the planes were only a few miles away from Vancouver, if you didn't have any data on the actual positions of the planes? Either you are trying to hide the data, or you do not have the data, and simply making up a story about where the planes were. Which is it?

I don't expect you to answer any of this, like usual.

If you are talking about this post (linked below), then that would be a post by 'tommyjo", not me:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I made my post a few posts after tommyjo's, but my post was about flights in general that fly near enough to Vancouver to be seen by someone in Vancouver (in response to your earlier assertion that no commercial flights going over the Pacific should ever be seen by someone in Vancouver leaving a contrail). It was not about the specific planes seen in the video posted by tommyjo.


Having said that, tommyjo's post gave you the information for you to confirm for yourself the flight data you were looking for. He gave the flight numbers, the date and time, and provided a link to the website -- all the information from which you yourself (or anyone, for that matter) could attain the flight data in order to verify the information for themselves (rather than simply relying on someone else providing information that you would need to blindly accept or reject).

Here is the information you can gleen from that Flighttracker website for two flights tommyjo mentioned that were most likely the planes that could be seen leaving contrails in that video he posted (again, I did not post them):

Delta 275 Boeing 777 is flying from Detroit to Taipei, Taiwan via Tokyo, Japan.
Plane Registration: N866DA
Altitude: 34,000 ft
Speed: 473 knots
Heading: 293°



Delta 295 Boeing 747 is flying from Atlanta to Shanghai, China via Tokyo, Japan.
Plane Registration: N669US
Altitude: 31,950 ft
Speed: 488 knots
Heading: 293°



Here are links to each of those flights that start a few minutes before each passed the Vancouver area.

Delta Flight 275 on 2014-26-02

Delta Flight 295 on 2014-26-02

a reply to: turbonium1

I don't expect you to answer any of this, like usual.

seriously?

you even posted this

So here you have someone who was trying to support his claim with evidence, which is the proper thing to do. When I showed him that it was NOT evidence of these being commercial planes, he should have admitted it. Because it is, again, the proper thing to do. I do not respect someone who hides from his own evidence, as it is cowardly. I don't care if he has proof, or not, but at least I'd expect him to answer me.

when did you "show " him or anyone reading the thread anything?

+ you don't care if there is proof?

Seriously, why does anyone interact with you then?

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

Having said that, tommyjo's post gave you the information for you to confirm for yourself the flight data you were looking for. He gave the flight numbers, the date and time, and provided a link to the website -- all the information from which you yourself (or anyone, for that matter) could attain the flight data in order to verify the information for themselves (rather than simply relying on someone else providing information that you would need to blindly accept or reject).

Here is the information you can gleen from that Flighttracker website for two flights tommyjo mentioned that were most likely the planes that could be seen leaving contrails in that video he posted (again, I did not post them):

Delta 275 Boeing 777 is flying from Detroit to Taipei, Taiwan via Tokyo, Japan.
Plane Registration: N866DA
Altitude: 34,000 ft
Speed: 473 knots
Heading: 293°

Delta 295 Boeing 747 is flying from Atlanta to Shanghai, China via Tokyo, Japan.
Plane Registration: N669US
Altitude: 31,950 ft
Speed: 488 knots
Heading: 293°

Here are links to each of those flights that start a few minutes before each passed the Vancouver area.

Delta Flight 275 on 2014-26-02

Delta Flight 295 on 2014-26-02

We can see right away that these two flight paths - assuming it is all valid, to begin with - do NOT match up with the two planes seen in the video clip..

The planes in the video were flying the very same path, only in parallel - this is all perfectly normal, to you all!!

Then, you show two planes flying different paths, and more nonsense.

You want all the planes to 'appear' that way, it's all an illusion!!

These are actual problems, not wild illusions.

Anyone that doesn't have any concerns about what is being sprayed over thousands of cities around the world, over and over, daily, for years....

....should have solid evidence. Since everyone of you have not a shred of doubt or questions about what they have sprayed over and over the entire planet every day, for years, has always been normal contrails. If it's never questioned, it means that either you have absolute proof that contrails alone are sprayed, and nothing more.

But you have no proof of what is being sprayed. And so, with all of you still trying to claim there are no doubts as to what they are spraying, which is contrails.

The part which is most peculiar is -

You all try to disparage anyone that doubts it, all of you speak about it as if everyone knows they are all contrails, except for you! So how come everyone else is wrong, but you? This is not even true, as people everywhere have doubts. You portray it as a flaky idea that only became popular via conspiracy sites, so it's not based on reality, or on any actual science.

Actual science has shown how a contrail may form, because science has found there are specific conditions which must be present within the atmosphere.

Anyone who claims a contrail can form in any atmosphere, that no csonditions must be present........is going against everything science has already proven, replicated, and documented.

So you think that all these scientists have identified the specific conditions within the atmosphere, required to form contrails..... now saying it was a bunch of crap, sorry folks!!


As if.

Why do you think it's my responsibility to find the proof for one of tommyjo's claims?

Are you joking?

It is the person who claimed something who has the burden of proving the claim.

How you cannot have grasped such a simple point, truly boggles the mind.

originally posted by: turbonium1


How you cannot have grasped such a simple point, truly boggles the mind.

It sure does. Contrails are a result of planes flying in air that is supersaturated. It happens quite often. It's a real thing that really happens due to the science involved. So when people look up and see lines in the sky, there is a really, really, really good chance those are contrails.

The FACT that airplanes don't have the capacity to hold/fly with/carry the amount of any chemical required to leave a trail artificially, is always glossed over by folks like you.

And lastly, the fact that with all the planes, all the airports, all the people involved in flight and the entire process, not ONE EVER has been able to offer any proof of spraying. NOT ONE EVER. NO pictures of spray planes, no pictures of tanker trucks full of chemicals, no testing of a trail in the sky, nothing. SO what the chemtrail theory is based on is nothing but a poor understanding of science, and a want to have something bad to blame other bad things on. It's retarded to a degree not understood by thinking people. SO Yea, it boggles the mind, truly.

originally posted by: turbonium1


We can see right away that these two flight paths - assuming it is all valid, to begin with - do NOT match up with the two planes seen in the video clip.

I have no idea where you are getting that they don't match. Those flights I posted (and tommyjo posted earlier) looks like they could be the flights in the video. There is no clear reason why they can't be.

The video mentioned it was filmed from a location near Cambie Street between 12th and 13th Avenues. The video also indicated the camera was looking generally south. The planes and trails in the video looked to be about 10 to 20 miles away.

Here is the screenshot from FlightRadar24, onto which I added an enlarged portion so we could see where the planes were relative to ground landmarks:




Here is a screenshot from Google Earth showing a ruler I put down from the filming area at Cambie and 12th and the area that the planes are in the FlightRadar24 screenshot above. The measured distance in Google Earth is 11.64 miles:



It seems to me that these two flights (Delta 275 and Delta 295) which are both on the same heading out over the Pacific on their way to Asia, could be the planes leaving trails in the videos.

originally posted by: turbonium1
It's not that any of you think chemtrails don't exist, or that chemtrails wouldn't cause any problems, being so far above us, winds blow, scatter, disperse all trails.

(These trails DO NOT 'blow away with winds'. They stay, and cover the sky.)

So all those trails that were created over the decennia are all still around somewhere someway somehow? If not, what happened to them?

It's not that you think a chemtrail would be quite harmless, anyhow.

What bothers me is something is constantly being sprayed high above me, and/or all around me, almost daily, by some type of unidentified aircraft.

Yes it's awful.. creating CLOUDS over our heads.. for all to see. The fact that you're continually being poisoned by exhaust gases from industry and cars all over the place doesn't matter, because you don't see that too much.. no the real problem is CLOUDS created by jets!

You act like they would never spray chemicals above people...

Just because you can possibly conceive of something being done, doesn't mean it IS being done. Your lack of grasp of what a contrail is doesn't make any theories born out of ignorance plausible.

If you want to impress any of the skeptics here, start by explaining what a contrail is, and then go on and explain why those lines in the sky CAN't be contrails, because they sure look and behave like them. Then again, you're a hardcore believer, so i'm not going to hold my breath.

Agent Orange, among others, don't count!!??

How was agent orange sprayed.. as in what types of airplanes, and from what altitude? Were they commercial airliners flying at cruise altitude? Can you think of a reason why that wasn't the case? Once you figure that out, you MAY understand why bringing up agent orange makes no sense in the context of 'chemtrails'.

Nobody is spraying any poisons on us, of course!!

If you think somebody is doing so, bring some credible evidence. That's all we need!

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: turbonium1


How you cannot have grasped such a simple point, truly boggles the mind.

It sure does. Contrails are a result of planes flying in air that is supersaturated. It happens quite often. It's a real thing that really happens due to the science involved. So when people look up and see lines in the sky, there is a really, really, really good chance those are contrails.

The FACT that airplanes don't have the capacity to hold/fly with/carry the amount of any chemical required to leave a trail artificially, is always glossed over by folks like you.

And lastly, the fact that with all the planes, all the airports, all the people involved in flight and the entire process, not ONE EVER has been able to offer any proof of spraying. NOT ONE EVER. NO pictures of spray planes, no pictures of tanker trucks full of chemicals, no testing of a trail in the sky, nothing. SO what the chemtrail theory is based on is nothing but a poor understanding of science, and a want to have something bad to blame other bad things on. It's retarded to a degree not understood by thinking people. SO Yea, it boggles the mind, truly.

You think it's impossible for planes to have extra tank(s), with chemicals?

As if...

originally posted by: payt69

originally posted by: turbonium1
It's not that any of you think chemtrails don't exist, or that chemtrails wouldn't cause any problems, being so far above us, winds blow, scatter, disperse all trails.

(These trails DO NOT 'blow away with winds'. They stay, and cover the sky.)

So all those trails that were created over the decennia are all still around somewhere someway somehow? If not, what happened to them?

It's not that you think a chemtrail would be quite harmless, anyhow.

What bothers me is something is constantly being sprayed high above me, and/or all around me, almost daily, by some type of unidentified aircraft.

Yes it's awful.. creating CLOUDS over our heads.. for all to see. The fact that you're continually being poisoned by exhaust gases from industry and cars all over the place doesn't matter, because you don't see that too much.. no the real problem is CLOUDS created by jets!

You act like they would never spray chemicals above people...

Just because you can possibly conceive of something being done, doesn't mean it IS being done. Your lack of grasp of what a contrail is doesn't make any theories born out of ignorance plausible.

If you want to impress any of the skeptics here, start by explaining what a contrail is, and then go on and explain why those lines in the sky CAN't be contrails, because they sure look and behave like them. Then again, you're a hardcore believer, so i'm not going to hold my breath.

Agent Orange, among others, don't count!!??

How was agent orange sprayed.. as in what types of airplanes, and from what altitude? Were they commercial airliners flying at cruise altitude? Can you think of a reason why that wasn't the case? Once you figure that out, you MAY understand why bringing up agent orange makes no sense in the context of 'chemtrails'.

Nobody is spraying any poisons on us, of course!!

If you think somebody is doing so, bring some credible evidence. That's all we need!

You need to prove the two planes in the clip are actually commercial flights, which one person on your side first claimed!!

It's not proven by anyone on your side, that's the whole problem.

You act like it's already proven that all of them are/were/will be.....contrails, same nonsense I've heard about moon landings, and 9/11, etc.

How wonderful to know they've identified 12 new clouds! Being how nobody saw those clouds, ever before..... until now!!

We've known every type of cloud already, and to claim there are 12 'new' types, is absurd!!

Apparently, these trails are not chemtrails OR contrails! They are newly identified types of 'clouds', which never existed before!! Come on, now!!

It's about many things - which includes chemtrails.

Others you mentioned are well-known, and we can avoid, or minimize, the effects.

Obviously they are very harmful to us - nobody suggested otherwise.


Chemtrails are hardly even known, let alone known to be any sort of hazard.

It works because these trails appear safe, they seem to have no effects at all, on humans, on health.


Why didn't nearly everyone, for many years, ever consider that smoking cigarettes may be harmful to our health?

They might have coughed, more and more, but nothing to worry about, right?


Do you get the point now?


Appears safe, because it seems to have no effects on us. After years of smoking, it seems all so fine and dandy.


Why would chemtrails be any different?


Why didn't they tell us that cigarettes were harmful to us? Why did all the 'experts' claim that it was perfectly safe?

Any idea on who allowed them to sell poisons to everyone, as cigarettes, lied to us, etc?...


Our own government, of course!