The "Human" Spectrum: Animal v Person

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

When we take politics out of life I'm a very loving person.

I have a few pets on my property mostly dogs people have given up on and it's mostly because people don't know how to understand what their fur babies are telling them, I've actually had one couple come back to see how their old pet was doing and when they seen the 180 in her they asked to have her back but I said no that it wasn't what their dog wanted and when asked how do I know she won't come back I said if she comes to you when you call her then I might consider it, long story short she is still with me.

Hey Buzzy: one of your best threads, I think, and good and relevant questions, I feel.

First thing I got: I used to be a horsetrainer. Grew up with horses, both bareback riding on the farm, to the performance horse industry and showing since I was nine. And I was a horseback riding instructor for many years, in English equitation. I've owned and cared for my own horses, from the pedigreed $50,000 kind, to the good old school horse that will babysit any rider, no matter how brutal their own experience being ridden by the inexperienced who fetch a small dollar amount, but are worth their weight in gold, from my perspective.

Having said all that, and as a cat, dog and bird pet owner all my life, imhexperience, in the horseworld, at least, there are generally two types of people, roughly, who get involved with horses. The more numerous and prevalent profile of those is the people getting off by dominating an animal (showing that animal who is boss kind of mentality) much bigger and more powerful than them, and then the second: those who just love to ride, appreciate the horse for safely carrying them, and know that good horsemanship and riding is really about asking that horse to dance with you, and showing off that animals' ability and superhorsemodel potential to the nth degree. Understand: a good performance horse is like having a Lambhorgini in a stall, if you know what you are doing.

Now, having expressed all that, I have to say it's already obvious where I fall on your human to animal ratio of behavior and feeling for animals. We are biologically considered animals, as well. What separates us, supposedly from the "animal kingdom" is that we are supposed to have a capacity for reason and intellect, abstract thinking that separates human from the animal kingdom. Notice, I say supposedly, and have a good reason for putting it this way.

We cannot communicate with the animal kingdom, and usually, their adaptations in order to survive in their particular environments, preclude us having a complete picture of their lives.
For that matter, how good are we, even in the 21st century, of understanding all other humans' experience and/or behavior, even with shared language and methods of communicating?

Not to mention, if you ascribe to the idea of reincarnation and karma, none of us really know on the ladder of living things, what that might represent and explain as the possibility of our reliving and experiencing life in different forms, which would inform our souls' progression of respect for life, and learning the lessons we haven't yet, by experiencing life in different forms which perceived value is attached to from the human perspective.

Whales have a higher brain weight to body weight ratio than we do. Who says that because they don't build roads, have political structure, etc that they are less, intellectually than us....when we don't speak their language. If they were far more advanced than us, perhaps they wouldn't WANT to be bothered with us..... We view other life, other than human, as here to be used as energy to support our continuation. How presumptive is that?
tetra

a reply to: thesaneone

I would like to think that too-that we animal freaks are higher evolutionary-wise-but who knows?

Maybe we feel closer to our animals because we have not evolved and are too close to our (maybe) ancestors?

Either way, my 7 rescues are loved as much as our humans, right or wrong-just the way it is.

Btw-our human iq's are quite a bit above normal-if that's even a factor-again-I don't know.

a reply to: jacygirl

You hit it on the head, people can't claim to be more evolved unless they get in touch with the wind.

We have a guy around here that can talk with birds, any bird he sees or hears he mimics their call and sure enough the bird he's talking to come in to his area, always cool to see people like that.

The other thing is this: I see that you think yourself lesser in the evolutionary perspective, as though your need for animal contact and recognition of how that enriches your life, makes you "lesser" evolved. I beg to differ with that.

This earth supports our survival as human. Understanding our place nature is inherently important tor worth as humans on the planet within the spectrum of the natural world and where we fit within that, as humans.

I have had the extraordinary experience of not only introducing people to horses, but watching that experience actually save people's lives, show them not only their own value and how they fit in to this world, but watch them bloom and grow and learn to care for each other, the planet and all living things in a totally different way t hat I feel is essential for all of us to survive in harmony, with attendant understanding and respect for not only our environment, but the sanctity of life that depends upon it.

Thanks for your thread, and a chance to express all that.
tetra

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
Sorry i know its long and you dont have to read it, i mostly do these long posts for me to do thought experimentation, explore my mind, etc. And about 75% of the time i just end up erasing it or moving to another page without actually posting it, when i end up rambling. Also sorry i didn't get to finish (not saying More rambling is desirable, only acknowledging and apologizing that i left it mid sentence) but i got interrupted and cannot remember but I think i was going somewhere along the lines of animal lovers also respecting or being lovers of nature...and, other than that, I'm not really sure... (when i say animal lovers i mainly just mean people who love watching, learning about, and being around and forming relationships with animals, not necessarily vegans or vegetarians who do not own pets, but not necessarily excluding them either.. I think i mention animal rights activists below)

Anyway, for some reason I just felt like posting it this time, cause sometimes I do that.So I apologize.


Id say the fact that you get along well with animals means you are actually probably More human than most, or at least a good percentage, of humans. But then I guess it depends on your reasons.

I'm sure someone will eventually bring up how Hitler loved his dogs, and I've seen people use this to try to bash on animal lovers or animal rights activist. Which I think is bs. The truth is, we just have to accept that hitler wasn't a "monster", and he had feelings, compassion, etc. It's dangerous to "dehumanize" these people because then we refuse to see the truth that anyone, or at least a lot of people, could become a killer under the right circumstances, and it's really not that hard to get sucked into some insane ideology, all in the name of good intentions. Its scarier to accept that the next "hitler" could be me or you, so we like to externalize these people outside of our social spectrum, as "other"... But this attitude could lead to us repeating some rather unpleasant chapters of history.

That being said, I COULD picture some anti-social type of person with some not so healthy thoughts or tendancies, surrounding themselves with animals and preferring their company to that of other humans who, don't understand them, who they themselves are disgusted by, who they cannot ir refuse to fit in with. Like a ted kazynski unibomber type.

But just a love of animals alone is not really an indicator of any psychopathic personality type all on it's own. Maybe the same could be said that a loce of animals alone is no indicator of kindness or compassion. I've heard stories of people who have over ten pets, sometimes even more than 30, so you might think they were an animal lover (some may be but simply didnt have the means to care for so many properly) but their animals are abused or neglected or both... A dog or cock fighter might have the outward appearance if an animal lover (lots of pets, lots of animal related paraphernalia like t shirts, figurines, paintings/posters featuring animals).

However... I tend to lean more towards animal enthusiasm/pet ownership as a sign of goodness, just as a general rule of thumb. You can also notice how animals react when in a person's presence. They may not own a pet, (maybe they grew up in a home with no pets and so the thought of having one and all the joy it could bring into their lives never occured to them) but when they visit a friend who has pets, you might notice a positive reaction from the animals, and i would take that as a possible sign that, at least deep down inside, they are a good person.

Maybe they got busted for shoplifting something really expensive or some crime that didn't involve physically harming another living thing. So you could trust turning your back on them for more than 2 minutes around your pets or children, but might not trust them around your rare golden coins encrusted with jewels collection. Then after getting to know them, you might discover they have other principals regarding theft, like that it's not AS wrong/immoral to steal from a multi-million/billion dollar corporation, but that to steal something, even a single cent, from an individual human being, is almost always (ALMOST because, well, some people just have it coming, like if they raped your sister but got off on a technicality, you might not see much wrong with robbing their house as payback) abhorrent to their very sense of humanity and is worthy of utter contempt.


As for the loner antisocial person hanging around their animals and who might snap one day... Who's fault is it that this person is psychologically damaged? Who's fault is it that society and its social groups are so elitist, especially as a teenager/young adult going through high school, social groups can be very cruelly exclusive and have very authoritarian requirements for admittance... all at a time when a persons emotions are at their most fragile and sensitivel? He/she would certainly be correct were they to assert that some pets/animals are far more tolerant and accepting than humans are... However, people seem to forget that they are providing their pet with all they need to survive, fulfilling most of the animals base desires/needs.

Wild animals don't come running up to you and lick your face. So, it's not really appropriate to say that animals are more kind and loving than humans... They are in survival mode whether domesticated or wild. I certainly believe that it is possible to form a bond (i have with one of my cats, and i learned its not necessarily a 100% good thing, because she gets "seperation anxiety", or used to anyway, when i leave the house. A mental stress she would not have been subjected to had I not given her so much love and attention. I guess there's pros and cons but i sometimes wonder if it was selfish of me to form such a strong and trusting and accepting bond with her.) that goes beyond basic needs like food, warmth, shelter from elements, protection/safety from predators, toys and entertainment, medical treatment, etc. But I wonder if it would be possible to form such a relationship if that creatures basic needs were left unprovided for. It seems to be like a foundation upon which things like mutual trust can be built.

Anyway, this thread is more about the qualities of a human who likes animals... As i said, i lean more toward the inclination that animal lovers, even those who profess to enjoy the company of animals to that of humans, to be More human than the average person, due to the fact that they recognise the moral duty to protect and care for beings which are weaker, smaller, less capable of survival, etc than they are. Ok maybe its not a "moral duty" to actively seek out some weaker thing than you to take care of, but what I mean is they recognize it as a general principal as in, If you were to come across some person or animal in need of help, you would have the urge to try to help them if possible. Also, there is a good chance a pet owner/animal lover

a reply to: 3n19m470

Hey: I think you have some important things to add to this exploration, but I think motivation is key here. Some are caught up in control and express it in their relationships with animals, while others are just expressing their love, recognition, sense of compassion and value for/to/with what we share the planet with, and can really enrich our lives and living experience, just by living in symbiosis with and caring for.
Regards,tetra

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: 3n19m470

Hey: I think you have some important things to add to this exploration, but I think motivation is key here.

tetra, I believe you hit the nail on the head! Isn't motivation 'key' to everything that we humans do?

This thread has been a great read so far, but I actually have to now walk over to the store (I've been sick for 2 days, in jammies)...to get my cat a can of tuna...because she is nagging me to death.
She won't eat cheap canned cat food, only tuna.

My present motivation is to get her off my keyboard.
jacy

originally posted by: tetra50
The other thing is this: I see that you think yourself lesser in the evolutionary perspective, as though your need for animal contact and recognition of how that enriches your life, makes you "lesser" evolved. I beg to differ with that.

This earth supports our survival as human. Understanding our place nature is inherently important tor worth as humans on the planet within the spectrum of the natural world and where we fit within that, as humans.

I have had the extraordinary experience of not only introducing people to horses, but watching that experience actually save people's lives, show them not only their own value and how they fit in to this world, but watch them bloom and grow and learn to care for each other, the planet and all living things in a totally different way t hat I feel is essential for all of us to survive in harmony, with attendant understanding and respect for not only our environment, but the sanctity of life that depends upon it.

Thanks for your thread, and a chance to express all that.
tetra

I had to reply to this before I go:

Just last night I was watching a show that i dont recall the name of, it could have been just another episode of "lockup". But it featured a man who runs a program where he brings prisoners to his horse ranch and teaches them to form relationships based on both leadership of, and respect for, the horses, with the idea being that they will bring those skills into the real n world, making them better people, better members of society. (I think the idea is that a person with leadership skills isnt going to fall prey to things like peer pressure or acting in an unsavory manner to gain the approval of others, because they are their own leader and don't require the approval of others in order to be ok with themselves and who they are. I think a lot of people are in prison because of things like this... I.e.: "He had sex with your girl, are you gonna let him get away with that, or are you gonna show him, and everyone else, that you are a Real Man who is not to be messed with?!" or "Come on, bro, come help us steal this car! You wanna be a part of our crew, right??" or any other variation of low self esteem that leads to the commission of a felony. Also, the other focus is on Respect for the horse's space. This respect can also be a real good quality in the real world sorely needed by convicts. You respect another person, and that leads to a lesser amount of physical altercations that turn violent. They learn that giving respect, even pre-emptively, is absolutely Not a sign of weakness. In fact, its a sign of wisdom, patience and strength, so long as the respect is mutual. When it is not mutual, thats when your leadership comes into play again, and you decide to have no further dealings with this person because they are not worth your valuable time.)

The episode I saw, the rancher had gotten a contract to break in 4 or 6 wild horses, and he was giving these guys a lot of responsibility (under his supervision and constant verbal guidance) with these wild horses, and having them do a lot of the breaking with what seemed like very little training. I thought "one of these guys is gonna get kicked or trampled by one of these crash horses!" but, they just followed the guys instructions, and sure enough, it worked. So i thought that was pretty cool, and you could see the progress and how these guys began to truly care about these horses and got kinda sad when a newly broken horse was sent away to the adoption place.

I mean, just imagine being the first human to make physical contact with and become friends with one of these wild horses, and knowing that it trusts you and is no longer afraid. The rancher guy would basically just have them watch him and what he did while alone in a pen with one wild horse, explaining everything as he goes, and then they would just repeat what he did, but with him verbally guiding them along the way. So these guys, were, one at a time of course, actually alone in a pen with a wild horse, jerking around, extremelly paranoid, and yet they managed to not only escape unharmed from the encounter, but actually becoming friends with the horse.

The horses were not abused in any way that I could see. I always thought breaking a wild horse would require striking it, or at least scaring it with, a whip or something. Not his method, it would appear. His method seemed to be based on trust, not fear or total domination.

Anyway that show made me realize, and remember all over again, how "human" horses can seem sometimes. And it made me realize I've barely had any contact at all with horses, though I would probably absolutely love having a deep bond with a horse. I could imagine it being a very spiritually rewarding relationship. When we went from horses to automobiles, it seems like we might have lost something.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Absolutely, as to "we might have lost something," and, as well, to the rest of your post. Let's say I am relying upon our good relationship that you will assist me, working very hard, to help me till this field so I can plant crops to feed my family, or to carry me across a vast Savannah to a place where we might both find food, water and shelter....

Then it becomes quite clear, not only what we have lost in our connection to nature, but also understanding our place within that environment, and how to both care for ourselves but the land and animals that allow for that to even happen.

The minute we had fast food, cars, and the ease of machines, industrializations and computing power, we became more and more separated as a natural species on the planet from the environment and the nature that supports us and gives us a set of rules for our survival, that also define whom we are, and even some of the why. Without all that, we are floating around, thinking we have the "freedom" to define ourselves now without all those constraints, until a major flood, hurricane or whatever reminds us that in those circumstances, the best computer, car and a suitcase full of money have absolutely nothing to do with our survival.....

You gave great concrete examples of what I was trying to say about what horses can do for troubled people.....and its profound to watch it, participate in it. As a teacher, I not only learned from every one of my students, I have learned innumerable and incomparable lessons from every horse I've ridden, showed or used for teaching. As a human being, they have informed my identity and taught me lesson after lessons, not only about who and what they are, but whom and what I am, and what should be important to me, and how to behave in the worst of circumstances.


Jacy: lol. Your cats are early bit as spoiled as I keep every animal I am lucky enough to foster....

Everyone interested in this might enjoy this article from The Atlantic: www.theatlantic.com...
Happy reading. Love your animals with all the love, commitment and loyalty they show you.
Regards,
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Thank you!!! It's so fascinating.....

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: tetra50

Thank you!!! It's so fascinating.....

No, Ms. Buzzy, thank you for a very well considered thread and attendant questions. Please don't ever think yourself less evolved for your love and consideration of animals. I am not here to judge, but we live in the environs that gave us life, and the animal kingdom is a big part of that, I believe. How we relate to our brethren is all important, defining, and essential to our worth, I think, as humans, striving to connect with, and compassionately relate to all living things,

Even here it can be applied: "there before the grace of God go I......"
regards,
tetra

a reply to: 3n19m470

Thank you. That is a fantastic post. It's a real conundrum......

we should ALL be thinking about this stuff.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: tetra50


Even here it can be applied: "there before the grace of God go I......"
regards,
tetra

"There before the grace of God go I..."

I've thought of that quote often in regard to animals.

To me, they are other life forms on this planet, and the fact that I cannot communicate with them does not mean that they are "less than" me in any way.
We never really learn to communicate with animals/pets properly...some people insist on 'giving orders' and having their orders followed. Ugh.
This is my character though, and always has been as far back as I remember. I respect that everyone does not have my character, but sometimes...I wish they did.
jacy

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

When we take politics out of life I'm a very loving person.

I have a few pets on my property mostly dogs people have given up on and it's mostly because people don't know how to understand what their fur babies are telling them, I've actually had one couple come back to see how their old pet was doing and when they seen the 180 in her they asked to have her back but I said no that it wasn't what their dog wanted and when asked how do I know she won't come back I said if she comes to you when you call her then I might consider it, long story short she is still with me.

That's awesome.
Thanks for pitching in to ensure the survival of our cohabitants.

Funny, with the mention of horses, I always found my work with horses was an aid in learning to relate and communicate with humans.

I had someone tell me recently (and I think she may have had a hand in the decision to fire my colleague) that she was amazed at my ability to say things to people no one else would dare to, and do it in a way they would accept and take well.

But when I am dealing with a person, I see images in my head of moments I have had with different horses, and how I approached them. I see equivalents in human exchanges. Like the equivalent of standing nonchalantly next to a nervous or scared horse, not looking at them, until I feel their heartrate slow down, then let a hand lightly rest on their shoulder, as if by accident, until they become comfortable and even curious about me - there is it's human equivalent to that.

I don't so much separate humans and animals because of biology, but more by language. It's like translating between french and english - there is a different world view that goes with the language, but the underlying non-verbal states and desires remain the same.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
The "Human" Spectrum: Animal v Person

Since we are using words, perhaps we should take a look at your's?
First both science and any dictionary allows that 'man' is an 'animal'
We are mammals, not reptiles. We are thus warm blooded.
We are animals, not vegetable or mineral or plasma...
We are animals as well as other species than we 'homo-s'; equine, canine, feline, etc...
All animals.

Perhaps you 'value' your own species as more valuable than another, or less valuable than another?
There are many here who wouldn't think twice about committing a genocide to save a child..., or themselves!
All 'value' exists in the eye (thoughts/ego) of the beholder!

To 'value' one anything over another seems less then Loving!

I think that (proto-) humans were swinging along happily through the trees until...
A cranky old being, 'thought'/ego, was wandering through interstellar space when it noticed this pretty blue planet, and we happily grinning monkeys in the trees, comfortably playing with ourselves.
'Possession' was easily achieved and the crap has been hitting the fan ever since!
It is finally dying (obviously)...
Without 'ego/thought', we will all be living in an Enlightened/unconditionally Loving Universe!
Only a couple hundred years... *__-

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

i agree

a reply to: namelesss

We are animals as well as other species than we 'homo-s'; equine, canine, feline, etc...
All animals.

Perhaps you 'value' your own species as more valuable than another, or less valuable than another?

Yes, we are animals. I thought I had made that clear. Of course we are animals! We are mammals. Not sure what your point is.

I actually don't value my species more than other animals. I think humans pretty much suck. Awful creatures.

And to build on that, I think of my animal companions as people. My horses, too.
Dolphins, Elephants, Felines, Canines, Primates -- all "people."