Freemasonry: Why All The Secrecy?

Originally posted by Osirisrisen


Are you implying the Masonic initiations are pointless?

Why does everyone keeping twisting everything that I say?

You protest too much from a position of hypocrisy. Twisting words is what you are doing.
Read it again.

"As I've said before, ceremonial initiation is only symbolic of True Initiation, which occurs within".

Does that say "pointless"?

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Are you implying the Masonic initiations are pointless? Why have them? I never said anyone was enlightened until someone wrote a ritual. I never said that. Why does everyone keeping twisting everything that I say?

Personally, I haven't seen anyone twist anything you said. Rather, you keep contradicting yourself. You're the one who wrote about perfectly performed rituals or whatever, saying this was a necessity. The reason it's hogwash is because there is no such thing. I've participated in and conferred hundreds of Masonic degree rituals; to pretend that each could be absolutely perfected is, quite honestly, laughable.

Secondly, I'm very aware of what Masonic rituals teach, and what they do not teach. They aren't "pointless", but they don't contain any earth-shattering secrets either. Regardless of the fact that you deny it, the secrets of Masonry consist in the modes of recognition.

You called me a liar because I said that all the other teachings of Masonry are found in Masonic books...and, to back up your argument, you turn right around and quote a Masonic book to "prove" it!

Now I might not be the brightest bulb in the pack, but if that isn't self-contradiction, I don't know what is.

Are you upset becuase I touched upon some truth? Don't worry I will not reveal too much.

Gee whiz, thanks a bunch.




[edit on 1-2-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Obviously, I know what I'm talking about. My point is that 85% of Masons don't know what I'm talking about.

You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. This is obvious based not only on your dubious claims, but also on the fact that you try and discredit certain people on this forum who REALLY DO know what they're talking about, and have proven it time and time again. Your constant disbelief of the very obvious truth, backed up by facts, tells me everything I need to know about you.

Not only do you not convince me that you know any masons, but you also do not convince me that you are in any position to be stating what 85% of masons do or do not know.

Originally posted by CO_Cowboy
Sebatwerk,
I have heard many a mason try to describe the secrets of freemasonry, but never as eliquant as you have. I started a thread a while back about "Divulging the Secrets of Freemasonry", with the intent of telling everyone what you did in one post.

Thanks, I try

I'm actually a fairly young mason and have a lot to learn, but everything I stated is nothing more than the obvious. It doesn't take a genious to figure this one out.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen

Hogwash. As I've said before, ceremonial initiation is only symbolic of True Initiation, which occurs within. The actual ritual, by itself, means nothing. This is what several esoteric Masonic philophers have meant by saying that there are many Masons who have never set foot in a Lodge Room. Initiation is internal. Ceremony points out the proper direction, but it is ridiculous to believe that no one was enlightened until some guy wrote a ritual.

This is once again a misleading statement. Are you implying the Masonic initiations are pointless? Why have them? I never said anyone was enlightened until someone wrote a ritual. I never said that. Why does everyone keeping twisting everything that I say? Are you upset becuase I touched upon some truth? Don't worry I will not reveal too much.

You really just don't get it, do you? The ritual, as it has been explained already, is symbolic of True Initiation. That is not to say that it is pointless, what our good friend Masonic Light here is trying to impress upon you is that the ritual itself is NOT the True Initiation. The True Initiation takes place in your heart, in your soul. You will hear Masons say that the first place you know you are a Mason is in your HEART. There are some men who will never set foot inside a Masonic Lodge, who, in their heart of hearts, ARE in fact Masons, just as there are those who are members of the Fraternity who are clueless. Does that make sense? It's a way of life, a philosophy, it is the idea that all men are Brothers under the Fatherhood of Almighty God, and that Truth, Relief (being willing to help someone out even if it means going out of your way, for example), and love of your fellow man are the foundations of life, of a man's character. Temperance, Fortitude, an inherent sense of Justice and Morality are some of the traits of a True Mason, whether he be a card-carrying Freemason or not. The point is the SOUL, the very being of Man is where the Initiation, or enlightenment takes place. The ritual seems to me to be a way that Brothers can share this experience and reinforce it, rather than the ritual being the be all end all of the whole thing. It gives men a common bond on which to build themselves and their Brothers up to the standard by which (in my opinion) we should ALL strive to emulate. Call me a sympathizer, apologist, whatever you want, because it means NOTHING to me, and I would imagine that anyone who is in a position to know in their heart what I'm talking about would say the same thing. And before you ask, NO I am not a Mason, officially, yet, but I am well on my way along the path that all good and true Masons must walk. I'm not perfect, I screw up just like everyone else, but in my heart I know that I am on my way (not even close to "there", mind you) to a more complete understanding of the Truths of this universe, and Masonry, at least to me, gives me an undivisive, unified, tried and true Path to follow that will REINFORCE what is already in my HEART, and shed LIGHT on those details I may have been missing, to make the puzzle pieces fit together.

The only thing you are "revealing" here is your ignorance and utter lack of understanding of what Freemasonry is about. I mean no offence, but the idea here is to DENY ignorance, not propogate it with unfounded claims and tripe.

Now then, what do you have to say to that Mr. Osirisrisen?


[edit on 2/1/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Your constant disbelief of the very obvious truth, backed up by facts, tells me everything I need to know about you.

Not only do you not convince me that you know any masons, but you also do not convince me that you are in any position to be stating what 85% of masons do or do not know.

I'm happy you know all there is to know about me. I have failed becuase my goal was to convince you that I know Masons. Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes..... Give me a break. I could careless would you believe or what you don't believe. I do not have an agenda one way or the other. I'm not trying to indoctrinate into a new system of thought. Please grow up young man and learn to think for yourself.

Originally posted by The Axeman
The only thing you are "revealing" here is your ignorance and utter lack of understanding of what Freemasonry is about. I mean no offence, but the idea here is to DENY ignorance, not propogate it with unfounded claims and tripe.

Now then, what do you have to say to that Mr. Osirisrisen?
[edit on 2/1/05 by The Axeman]

You still don't get it. I didn't make these things up my friend. I give up.

1. What made you initially interested in becoming a Mason?

2. Were you asked to join or did you ask to join a lodge?

3. What has kept you involved with the Masons?

4. How has your life changed since joining?

5. Can you un-join the Masons?

Please excuse my ignorrance in this line of questioning, but I am seriously interested in your answers!!!

Thansk!

IAOM. Is this code for real?

Seriously, is this a code word used by the masons? The way you pronounce it can mean many things

Originally posted by mpeake
1. What made you initially interested in becoming a Mason?

I'd read a few books on the subject, by both Masons and those opposed to Masonry, and became interested in the subject. I did some historical research on it, and came to respect the institution and decided that it was something I'd like to do.

2. Were you asked to join or did you ask to join a lodge?

In the United States, at least in most jurisdictions, Masons are forbidden to solicit or recruit new members. If someone wishes to become a Mason, he is required to ask to be admitted.

3. What has kept you involved with the Masons?

I enjoy the meetings, the fellowship with the Brethren, the beauty of the ceremonial rituals, and I strongly believe in the fraternity's ideals and charitable programs.

4. How has your life changed since joining?

It has led me to more serious research into various disciplines, especially in ethics and philosophy, which I'd already enjoyed anyway. Furthermore, it's very nice to attend Masonic meetings, knowing that all men there share your basic convictions.

5. Can you un-join the Masons?

Any Master Mason in good standing may formally resign his membership. An indirect and informal way of resigning would be to cease paying annual membership dues.

Masonic Light, thanks much for your reply!!!

Can you tell me about your religious background (if you even had one to associate yourself with at all) before becoming a Mason, and if that ideology has changed since joining?

Also, how much are your yearly dues?

Originally posted by mpeake

Can you tell me about your religious background (if you even had one to associate yourself with at all) before becoming a Mason, and if that ideology has changed since joining?

I was raised Episcopalian, and still consider myself Episcopalian, albeit a very liberal and unorthodox one. I have unitarian leanings, which encompass ideas I've derived from the study of Buddhism, Pantheism, and Hinduism. My religious ideas have not changed since becoming a Mason.

Also, how much are your yearly dues?

I'm a member of two different Lodges, so I pay dues to both. Both charge $30 per year, but one of them has a stipulation in their By-Laws that Past Masters only pay half of regular dues, so I pay $15 per year there.

Again, thanks for your honest and candid replies! My grandfather (90 yrs old) is a mason and has been since a young man about my age (27). he is and has always been pretty tight lipped about it, so most of what I get is from the internet, so I try and get as much info from those who have first hand knowledge.

I have also come to Respect the Institution of Masonry!

Mpeake tell me something -> Do you think that Masonry is a "Cult"? Just what were you getting at with your questions?

Well then Masonry sure is a Strange Cult - one that believe in Science & Reason & Freedom & Liberty & is against Ignorance & Dogma & Discrimination/Bias (In Race & Religion). One that Believes in the
"Brotherhood of Man" & the "Grand Architect of the Universe".
An Institution that I am CONSTANTLY Learning from!

You want to find a Cult - then ask were all of these Deranged & Psychotic "N.W.O" Heads get their Info from!!!

P.S. Nice Avatar!

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by mpeake

Can you tell me about your religious background (if you even had one to associate yourself with at all) before becoming a Mason, and if that ideology has changed since joining?

I was raised Episcopalian, and still consider myself Episcopalian, albeit a very liberal and unorthodox one. I have unitarian leanings, which encompass ideas I've derived from the study of Buddhism, Pantheism, and Hinduism. My religious ideas have not changed since becoming a Mason.

Also, how much are your yearly dues?

I'm a member of two different Lodges, so I pay dues to both. Both charge $30 per year, but one of them has a stipulation in their By-Laws that Past Masters only pay half of regular dues, so I pay $15 per year there.

ML, what are you doing? The Masons are a secret society and you are giving up these secrets?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Mpeake tell me something -> Do you think that Masonry is a "Cult"? Just what were you getting at with your questions
[edit on 2-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Honestly, I know so little about Masonry to think anything of it. But I sure don't think it's a cult. Like I said, my grandfather is a Mason and is one of the greatest men I know. I just would rather get info on the Masons from a Mason, instead of the non-informed fanatics who go around calling them satanist.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
I'm happy you know all there is to know about me. I have failed becuase my goal was to convince you that I know Masons. Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes..... Give me a break. I could careless would you believe or what you don't believe. I do not have an agenda one way or the other. I'm not trying to indoctrinate into a new system of thought. Please grow up young man and learn to think for yourself.

What exactly makes you say that I do not think for myself?

Originally posted by Osirisrisen

Originally posted by The Axeman
The only thing you are "revealing" here is your ignorance and utter lack of understanding of what Freemasonry is about. I mean no offence, but the idea here is to DENY ignorance, not propogate it with unfounded claims and tripe.

Now then, what do you have to say to that Mr. Osirisrisen?
[edit on 2/1/05 by The Axeman]

You still don't get it. I didn't make these things up my friend. I give up.

I think I do get it.

I never said you made these things up, I merely stated that you seem to be ignorant as to what Freemasonry is all about. You come on this board, saying "I heard such-and-such from so-and-so", who is supposedly a 32nd degree (for pete's sake will someone enlighten me as to how to type the "degree" symbol?!?! is it a bbcode? My keyboard is devoid of such a key! ) Mason. What I am saying is that I have spoken with many Masons, here and in person, and read tons of articles on the subject, and am working on building my own home library of books on said subject, and I have made my own conclusions based upon what I, myself, have studied. Now if all you can say in response to my post is "I give up. ", well then you completely missed the point, and that saddens me.

Would you care to comment on the meat of my above post, i.e. concurrence or contradiction, based on your own studies rather than hearsay? Or anyone else, particularly the Masons here... I'm always up for constructive criticism or redirection if I am in error.


[edit on 2/2/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
[Would you care to comment on the meat of my above post, i.e. concurrence or contradiction, based on your own studies rather than hearsay? Or anyone else, particularly the Masons here... I'm always up for constructive criticism or redirection if I am in error.
[edit on 2/2/05 by The Axeman]

I have to say based on my own experience and studies, I do not have enough information to say that there is a conspiracy. I think some information may be misunderstood by those that are ruled by dogmatic beliefs.

On the same note just as one can work for a company and have knowledge of the day to day operations, the same individual may not have a clue as to what happens in other compartments of the organization. This individual will deny any hint of scandal aimed towards the company, becuase they just don't see it.

You can apply this to churches or any other institution. We recently discovered what was happening behind closed doors with the Priests. You probably could have asked any church member and they would have adamantly denied this.

In regards to Masonry there is the theory that there is an organization within the organization. I don't know how anyone not belonging to this supposed inner organization would have knowledge of it. Even if you've been involved with Freemasonry for 30+ years and have been loyal to the organization.

How many Enron employees do you think knew what was going on with that company. I choose not to be naive but to be open to all possibilities, and to put my trust in The Supreme Being.

Originally posted by The Axeman
(for pete's sake will someone enlighten me as to how to type the "degree" symbol?!?! is it a bbcode?

You can type the symbol by pressing "Alt" while you type 248.