I Wish...I wish we could agree on something on ATS!

I debated on whether to put this in 'mud-pit' or here, but let's see how it goes here and let the mods decide where it best fits...

Recently there seems to be an increasing number of threads here on ATS lamenting the exponential increase in politically oriented threads. In other words, OPs about threads on ATS (political ones). Indeed there has been a substantial increase in both content and volatility. Equally, we are in some pretty tumultuous political times around the globe right now. There is significant unrest, the media has gone completely off the rails (on BOTH sides) and people are tired of rhetoric and are demanding action after far too long (again, on BOTH sides).

For my part, I genuinely try to thoroughly read much if not all of an entire thread before posting. I will readily admit I don't always succeed, but I try. And, I will further acknowledge that sometimes my rejoinders can be sharp. I do enjoy healthy debate, and I loathe bias and blind allegiance without reason. I equally abhor political correctness for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings; I think this only censures true debate and further fosters festering attitudes below the surface. I'm all for debate, and frankly, the more spirited the better. However, there are points at which some of these discussions/debates just descend into nonsensical rock fights, serving no purpose.

One of the observations I personally have made over recent months is many of the 'flame-wars' here on ATS stem from issues surrounding 'terminology'. As noted above, I am by NO means advocating sanitizing discussions to the point of ambiguity for the sake of people's feelings, but I do wonder if we could all agree on some things...

(Note: I abhor the word "trigger", and I will try my utmost to not use it here in this post)

There are certain words which do seem to get a rise out of people more so than others. I think part of the visceral reaction to these words is the context in which they are used. I further believe that upwards of 80%+ of the time some of these words are used out of context, or just completely incorrectly. For example, words like...

- Fascist
- Communist
- Permutations on the words 'democrat' and 'republican'
- Socialist

I'm sure there are many more, and perhaps we should discuss those too, but it seems to me when it comes to political discussions the misuse of these words are chief among some of the more problematic discussions. Of these words, the one I see most often misused is the word "Fascist" (just my opinion though). I would be willing to wager that if we could somehow post a blind survey here on ATS asking members who use this word to define their interpretation of it (without being able to see anyone else's responses first) that 9/10 posters wouldn't even come close to the true definition of the word 'Fascist'. It would seem perhaps there should be an unwritten rule if one doesn't know the definition of a word they are not allowed to use it in a debate. (Again, NOT advocating more rules here, but rather hoping to seek consensus).

Second right behind 'Fascist' would be "Communist". Again, if we did a blind survey like that noted above, I'd wager the vast majority would be unable to define 'Communism'. I'm not going to go too far down the rabbit hole of definitions here, but communism and socialism are related but different. Similarly, fascism can exist in both communism and socialism. Just a couple examples of some of the problems with these terms. So when people of a clear political alignment start tossing these words about without knowing what they actually mean conversations and debates quickly escalate out of sensible control.

It sure would be nice if we could at least benchmark the definitions of some of these terms so when they're used at least they're used correctly and in context...not just as a label or name calling in a rock fight.

Any thoughts??

How might we go about accomplishing some benchmarks for terminology, and what are some similar terms we might also apply to this list?

Thanks!

I agree.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Prepare you and your family for the inevitable!

The 1% has socially engineered this scenario in the United States and other Western countries since the end of WWII. We are seeing the payoff/outcome of being patient and so calculating by those who control us that no matter what those of us in the middle so to speak decide to do, the outcome will be in their favor regardless.


We are pawns in their mad game of control and world domination, and no matter what course we decide to choose, I am quite sure they will still end up on top!


I hope I am wrong. But I have prepared and have urged my family and friends to do the same.


As far as the internet goes? Pfffffft, how many of these people are even real? I mean real as in actually being truthful in their words or actually spreading the propaganda that has so successfully divided us? Think about that......

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I always enjoy your threads. I usually salivate over them as I do not live an existence of which such grand meals are in my life. I am often jealous of your taste buds!

I have also noticed in your threads, the ability to see middle ground in a sea of outward moving energies. If I seen your words be hateful and judgmental then the bond that your words and threads would create a natural wall on their own. People that read and type here are in a multitude of personality types... am I the only one who remembers the words and actions of others and develops a certain comfort in rationalization of debate? I remember when I agree and disagree with people on particular debates... I also remember the finger pointers along the way.

All I can do is state my experiences and conceived actions, assess, and move on. I do hope to find my energies surrounded by those that aren't finger pointing, and will call me out if I fail to see that I am being overly judgmental.

a reply to: seeker1963

A couple sayings come to mind here...

'We can't boil the ocean and solve world hunger at the same time'

and...

'You can't eat the elephant, but one bite at a time'

In other words, while I don't disagree with your premise, I equally believe in order to find solutions one has to both start somewhere, and at the same time reduce the "noise" from discussions and debates. There's actually some incredibly bright people here on ATS (one of the very, very, few websites I can say that about) who have some great ideas. Many of them post these ideas, but then they get lost in a bunch of other what I call "noise". They get drowned out. So what I'm proposing is first trying to come to some sort of consensus on 'noise reduction' through clarification of terminology.

To your larger point; perhaps we should add the word "they" to the list. Frankly, the word "they" is probably the most over-used and misused word in modern language. I've often thought of writing an entire book about "who are THEY, and how do we define them...EXACTLY?" In addition, perhaps we have to add the word "Elite" to the words requiring benchmarking.

Just a thought.

a reply to: ttobban

Thank you, I appreciate those words. There is some solace in knowing some of my perceived objectivity doesn't go completely unnoticed. This is not to be confused with my having an opinion, as I most certainly do have one (as I'm sure you have seen if you've read some of my posts). I do fully understand that my opinion is not shared by all, and I do genuinely try to understand the larger picture before forming any opinion at all. Equally, I try to understand both sides of a debate, if for no other reason than to understand the motivations of the opposition. I believe it allows for better probability of success in negotiations.

I will admit though, I sometimes do react to over-the-top zeal and blind agenda with equally sharp rejoinders. Perhaps it is an effort to take the rougher edges off of a discussion before the main point gets lost.

Thanks!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The Mud-Pit has evolved into an out of context battlefield, where slinging mud for the hell of it seems more important than having a healty discussion. Thats why i try to stay away from them now.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

As a neutral observer when a right leaning poster calls you a communist they are losing the conversation and when a left leaning poster calls you a fascist they are losing the conversation

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I am an empath by nature... and in past was conflicted by the inability in others to find middle ground in debate. Until I asked a person that never even lifted a thought of care to ill will towards their own person... they just magically dance around such things. What I was told... That they take things a step further then most do in thought & action, and they treated others as they would want that person to treat their child. It instantly clicked... it's not about what we want for ourselves.

That's where words said hold meaning more than just the words typed. I'd hate for my child to be labeled anything, labeling a person is a quick way to get my ADD to kick in. Instead, I move over a page and continue reading up about pans that move to the oven to finish... I learned that from you, and will implement it when I start cooking.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I don't think the problem is that we do not know how certain terms are defined. The problem is people will twist those definitions to fit a political narrative they are trying to push.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Sticks and stones man. The terms "fascist", "socialist" and "communist" have all become as curse words to those who have no minds of their own and let the media influence their sensibilities.

I care not what names a person may call me in debate for I know in my heart who I am. I also know that when your opponent resorts to what they consider name calling that they have run out of facts to support their cause. I'm sure you may also have noticed that the "go- to" phrase that current political wannabe debaters spew when they run out of logic is to respond with "strawman argument" for anything they disagree with but cannot muster up intelligent argument for- in their eyes they believe this is the verbal equivalent of "dropping the mic".

In conclusion I find that the old saying holds true: "If you can't run with the big dogs you need to stay on the porch!"

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Do we all like.... strawberries, or just berries in general? I do.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

99% of the problems could really be solved by ...

1. Absolute cessation of insulting other members, whether directly or (ahem) subtly.

2. Avoiding empty and mostly meaningless generalizations that result in false dichotomy, e.g. "the Left, the Right, etc."

3. Establishing whether a post is a claim of fact based on evidence, or merely an opinion or statement of belief.

a reply to: introvert

I somewhat agree with you, but I still think a lot of the people here have absolutely no idea what on earth they are talking about. And I see it from thread to thread, it's insane. People pretending to be outraged, just for the sake of it, even though they have no idea what's really going on.

Recently, I got called a sick person, a supporter of pedophilia for trying to point out to some of the facts left out by the mainstream media. Before that, during the RNC, I got called a fascist too, for supporting Donald Trump.

Lack of basic knowledge is astonishing

a reply to: Nikola014

Yes... it's an odd world when one has to question their own insanity.

I try to hold onto the crazy that is left... not so sure I'm right about that.

There is a difference between someone being ignorant and someone having a diametrically-opposed belief or position.

Trust me, that was a difficult lesson for me to learn, but I am better for it.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Hey Clay,

I sympathize with what you've written. I also think ATS has a lot to offer "as is", though of course not everything everyone wishes for.

But many a person's gone mad and/or inflicted unnecessary unhappiness on themselves and others by trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. I kind of think that's the situation here.

I know there's "rougher" places on line, but still, ATS, despite wishes or pretensions to the contrary and whatever it might have been or not been in the past its more like gladiator school than it is a think tank. And that's not to say that there aren't people here that are "think tank" smart, but you know, they literally let anyone in here and lot of them more than once.

I can't fault you, or anyone else, for trying to push some changes, but for my part, I've just decided to accept it for what it is, avail myself of the "as is" benefits it currently provides, and invest back into it what I calculate it warrants; keeping the concept of lost opportunity costs in mind.

Anyway, I sincerely wish you and those of you trying to improve the place the best of luck. Just don't get your hopes up too high. And remember it's not all bad as it stands.