Churches increasingly feel need to offer sanctuary to undocumented migrants

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Snarl

Why would The Church help people break the law?

People do not view violating laws they feel are immoral in the same way they do other laws.

As a rule, I don't go around breaking the law.

What kind of society would we be if they did?

A law abiding one. ☜ note the dot.

We can't go around picking and choosing which laws we follow and which laws we flaunt. If I'm speeding, I'll be respectful to the cop, take my ticket and pay the fine.

You've never thrown out an old tenants junk mail? That carries a five year term in federal prison.
Ever play poker for money in a friend's garage?
Never downloaded a song without paying? A movie?
What about sodomy? Everybody who has a libido and isn't hung up on archaic dogma could be arrested for this.

Good honest folk break laws all the time. Because there are some seriously useless laws out there.

a reply to: FHomerK

Dude, folks around here know that I'm a rabid atheist.

I'm quoting Bible at some of our more religious members because I love to see the conniptions to make it mean something other than what it says.

I don't agree with the concept of "sanctuary" ... sometimes I like to play Devil's Advocate.

You know ... kinda what you're trying to do.

originally posted by: bender151
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Again, you throw numbers around with nothing to back it up. That makes you, say it with me, ignorant. Are there people who pass judgement for no other reason than because that's how they interpret something. Sure! I mean, that's exactly what you just did.

I honestly don't remember throwing any numbers around in this thread.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

There are Plenty of American Citizens in this Country Suffering in Poverty Right Now , What is the Charity of the Churches doing for them ? I am Also Sure there are Many illegals in this Country who are Suffering the Same Fate , but they Chose to come into this Country through the Back Door , and Knew the Situation that awaited them as Members of the Underground Population in Need . I Think Priorties should be Considered here when Talking about Helping those less Fortunate than the Rest of US .

Attention Please

The topic is not each other. If you can't be civil, please move on. Insulting each other is not debate.

Do not reply to this message.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Definitely hypothetical as there are no slaves (unless you consider the U.S. taxpayer) and no known, by me anyway, concentration camps.

Do you feel this is a valid "when" situation? I do not. I do however think there is many more and much better options that both coincide with the law and give path to citizenship.

Asylum is one but again, the rules need be followed. Which I must mention were in fact not their first time around.
www.immihelp.com...

*I can't copy/paste from that site but look at the eligibility requirements.

a reply to: queenofswords

I'm more curious as to what vetting process people think these entities are on the hook for. Are they supposed to check ID's? I'm a case manager for state benefits and,,while we don't disburse benefits to undocumented individuals, we don't report them either. I happen to work with many of these third party providers as well (churches, Christian and catholic, almost exclusively). I don't see Islamic organization ever... or atheist... or anything else. Regardless, many of the services these churches provide is simply food bank donations and assistance in navigating federal and state programs.

This just burns me because, without statistics, I refuse to accept rhetoric mired in disdain for obvious personal reasons. Many Christians are hypocrites? What does that even mean? You met one or two like that once upon a time. The only definite thing anyone can take away from such statements is what a #ty person you are. Secondly, they should do more? What a load of #. Why don't you be the first exclusively atheistic organization ... then maybe start 799 more? It takes a special kind of asshole to criticise someone for helping someone else.

a reply to: Snarl

I would say that nearly every person has a point at which they will disregard the law on moral grounds. To go back to the hypotheticals in my response to JinMI, let's consider the institution of slavery. Familiar with the Fugitive Slave Act?

Many abolitionists defied the law openly. Reverend Luther Lee, pastor of the Wesleyan Methodist Church of Syracuse, New York, wrote in 1855:

I never would obey it. I had assisted thirty slaves to escape to Canada during the last month. If the authorities wanted anything of me, my residence was at 39 Onondaga Street. I would admit that and they could take me and lock me up in the Penitentiary on the hill; but if they did such a foolish thing as that I had friends enough on Onondaga County to level it to the ground before the next morning.

It was a surreptitious discovery but I found that quote particularly germane.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I accept your apology. Thank you

originally posted by: FHomerK
a reply to: JinMI

Here's the scoop.... are you listening?

I don't care what he/she/it is (I mean, a gryphon [just as real as God] is an it, right?). Christian, atheist, or even if they believe the color purple is liquid ecstasy. I honestly don't care.

What I do care about, is that our laws...laws that I abide by every single day, but these "undocumented immigrants" don't... are followed. It's only fair. Every country has a legal means by which people are allowed to immigrate. I can't decide to up and become French and expect to waltz in and be given special rights above and beyond what the average French person enjoys.

So, that being said...why are some exempt? Why are those who believe in a rather cruel individual in the clouds allowed to violate the law?


What gryphon said, doesn't matter. What he believes, doesn't matter. I simply don't care.

No immigrant claims more rights than citizens, if you have a source provide it. Based on the evidence you have presented here tonight, I have a serious disbelief that you abide by the law.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Me, hubris? Do you even ATS?

Actually, in this case it isn't hubris. I'm not the one who opened a thread attempting to connect violation of federal laws to religion.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The Support for Slavery back in 18th Century America was Based on Extreme Racism , and Driven by Economics . Not Everyone back then were that Uncaring for a Fellow Human Being no matter what their Skin Color was .

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: BubbaJoe

There are Plenty of American Citizens in this Country Suffering in Poverty Right Now , What is the Charity of the Churches doing for them ? I am Also Sure there are Many illegals in this Country who are Suffering the Same Fate , but they Chose to come into this Country through the Back Door , and Knew the Situation that awaited them as Members of the Underground Population in Need . I Think Priorties should be Considered here when Talking about Helping those less Fortunate than the Rest of US .

Zanti, on this rare occasion I am going to agree with you. I think churches suck, I am agnostic at best. My thought is they want to talk the talk, they need to walk the walk. I know there are some religious organizations out there that do a boatload of work, and I salute them, even with my beliefs, donate to them.

So folks, I've been called out as being a kid using their Father's computer. I've been accused of doing things that others here "have already gotten out of their system". And, hey.... I pulled the trigger too quickly after reading a post, and then ADMITTED that I misread it.

Put simply, I am not religious. I am expected to follow the laws of this country.

So, why should I be happy-happy-it's-log-it's-log-it's-better-than-bad-it's-good when people who believe in a man made notion like religion decide that their houses of worship are perfectly acceptable in offering "sanctuary" in full defiance of the law?

Why are we all equal, yet some moreso than others? Why are those special snowflakes allowed to navigate around a law that I clearly would not be eligible to dodge myself in the same situation? Why must I be ok with this? Why must I support it? Why must I be civil when my damned tax dollars are going towards the cost of these people being here illegally? When they are still highly prevalent in causing even more crime? When they steal SSN's that determine whether or not a good, honest, hard working american can buy a home? Live the American Dream?

Why are we giving these people a shot at the American Dream, when they're frequently the very reason why people CANNOT HAVE the American Dream?


G'night.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

You think maybe, just maybe, the person who started the thread may have been championing simple human compassion rather than advocating for ignoring the laws?

It's not the churches responsibility to enforce the laws. It is, however, a tacit if not explicit responsibility that they help those in need ...

Couldn't it be that, for some, the sense of compassion overwhelms the sense of legalism?

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: BubbaJoe

There are Plenty of American Citizens in this Country Suffering in Poverty Right Now , What is the Charity of the Churches doing for them ? I am Also Sure there are Many illegals in this Country who are Suffering the Same Fate , but they Chose to come into this Country through the Back Door , and Knew the Situation that awaited them as Members of the Underground Population in Need . I Think Priorties should be Considered here when Talking about Helping those less Fortunate than the Rest of US .

Zanti, on this rare occasion I am going to agree with you. I think churches suck, I am agnostic at best. My thought is they want to talk the talk, they need to walk the walk. I know there are some religious organizations out there that do a boatload of work, and I salute them, even with my beliefs, donate to them.

Ah..... Why Hush My Mouth ! Fifty Million Americans on Food Stamps , Eight Million Americans Living in Extreme Poverty ..................Yes , Charity Does Begin at Home...........