Robot taxes and universal basic income - How do we manage our automated future?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Its economics 101. New markets create more economic potential which can create growth. Yes, the same people own the capital. The same as always. The US wasn't a wildland that people could just wander onto to live. We all pay taxes as sure as we breathe. None of us live for free....humans suck.

Perhaps it'll change one day. But to have that chance, we will need to survive long enough to make it there. Unless we have a new market we are going to create on Earth, the only alternative I can see is space. There isn't going to be another internet creating make believe real estate any time soon.

Its the whole reason we were going to space to begin with: once we gained China into the world market, our Keynsian system could only go down. We require constant growth for our economy to work. When that growth slows/stops, it all falls apart. And now the clock has started ticking again. The internets make believe real estate can only take us so much further.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

...We require constant growth for our economy to work. When that growth slows/stops, it all falls apart. And now the clock has started ticking again. The internets make believe real estate can only take us so much further.

Ye olde Ponzi scheme. ...Unnecessary imho.

The tax on the robots would make up for the income taxes that would no longer be collected from working humans.

...The income tax was enacted to make up for the liquor tax that was no longer available when prohibition was enacted, and strangely when prohibition was rescinded the income tax remained...

American's have apparently been dumb beasts of burden for many decades...

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I'm pretty sure robots will be doing most of the work in space. ...So what then? The Ponzi scheme collapses on top of 7 billion people?

...We're still stuck on 2 basic choices: robot taxes or UBI. Any other alternatives?

a reply to: soficrow

Maybe a perfect solar storm hitting the planet would do the trick.
No electricity for ages, humanity back to primitive levels, no power for the darling robots to function on.

Grim, but at this point in time it would certainly slow down the metal mothers !!

Or we could all just unite and fight this nightmare near future.
Refuse to use automation, boycott any self serve, boycott any companies using excessive automation, only do business if human contact is involved. Stop ordering online. It goes on and on....

Will it happen ??
No chance, because the majority are sleepwalking into a future that will inevitably destroy mankind.

I will fight it as long as I can, I will continue to shop on the high street for as long as I can. I will not use self serve in supermarkets or banks. Amazon can go to hell.

Yep, I'm doing my bit....anyone out there care to join me ??

uk " dinasaurus " today

a reply to: uk today

...the majority are sleepwalking into a future that will inevitably destroy mankind.

I don't think it has to destroy us. Not sure how we can tweak it to make it serve us all though. Anyway, here's an update from CBC in Canada. I love it when ATS hits the MSM, even if we're not credited.

'As well or better than humans': Automation set for big promotions in white-collar job market

Expert says millions of Canadian jobs could be at risk over next decade

...Sunil Johal, policy director at the Mowat Centre think-tank at the University of Toronto, says millions more Canadians — between 1.5 million and 7.5 million, many of them highly skilled workers — could (lose their jobs) over the next decade because of rapid technological advances, including in artificial intelligence and robotics, and the potential for automating increasingly sophisticated tasks.

Johal says, at this point, nobody should consider their job "safe."

"We are starting to see in fields like medicine, law, investment banking, dramatic increases in the ability of computers to think as well or better than humans. And that's really the game-changer here. Because that's something that we have never seen before."

a reply to: soficrow

It may not be an extinction event as such for the human race, but it sure is a game changer that I would predict is destructive on countless levels.

What would be our purpose here ???
To take the universal payout and be allowed to sit on our butts and let automation get on with the job ??

I think its all rather suss.
Governments promise this, they promise that, they promise any promise that they can break. But by then it will be waaay too late to realise that " yep, the sheep have fallen for it yet again "
Robots are doing all your jobs people. At a fraction of your human hourly rate. Yes they can be taxed, yes they never moan or go on a lunchbreak, never fall sick.....blah blah blah.

But, there is a saying, and believe me I am not religious..." the devil makes work for idle hands "
Wow, how happy is he going to be !!

Society will end up fragmented, worthless, bored, pretty skint, and totally dependent on AI and automation. Which will inevitably at some future time crash and burn. Leaving us, when it does, in rather a colossal big fat abysmal mess.

But hey, what do I know....

uk " robotssuck " today

a reply to: soficrow

When the elite have there robots what need will they have for us..

a reply to: purplemer

Someone has to buy the products the robots produce. If you eliminate the bottom 90% of income earners, the 10%'ers suddenly become the 99%'ers. It's all relative.

originally posted by: soficrow
NOTE: A 2015 study found that 45 percent of US jobs could be replaced right now by current technology.

So what do you do in a world with no jobs for billions of people? Or in the US, with no jobs for 45% of the working population? (That's what? In millions?)

And what are the unemployed and unemployable supposed to do? Starve? Die?

There are 3 "solutions" under discussion: A Universal Basic Income (UBI); robot tax; and negative income tax (about the same as UBI). But despite the writing on the wall, and the fact that few can "go back to the land," many dismiss all the solutions outright as either "Communistic" or unacceptable because they imply human rights for robots.

So, what...?

Robot taxes and universal basic income: How do we manage our automated future?

Automation and artificial intelligence are set to replace humans in a wider array of jobs than ever before, so how does society deal with it?

As more and more jobs are becoming automated, the world faces a dramatic shift in the underlying structures of its labor economies over the next 20 to 50 years. The conversation is slowly becoming more prominent in the mainstream with several major figures highlighting the problem and proposing different solutions. Elon Musk maintains that the idea of a universal basic income is the best solution, while Bill Gates advocates for a robot tax.

It's undeniable, we are entering a revolution in our labor economy. Numerous recent reports have reached some confronting conclusions as to the effects of automation and artificial intelligence on our current work force. A striking report from Oxford University in 2013 estimated that about 47 percent of the total current US work force is at risk of becoming redundant due to automation or artificial intelligence. Another study in 2015 found that 45 percent of jobs in the US right now could be replaced by currently demonstrated technologies.

Buy your own robot and send it to work!

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: gladtobehere

Um, "gay robots"?????

Hell, why not?

I want a transgendered, stainless steel one with frickin lazer beams.

let your money do the talking

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: soficrow

When the elite have there robots what need will they have for us..

One does wonder.

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
Hell, why not?

I want a transgendered, stainless steel one with frickin lazer beams.

Did you just assume it has a binary gender?

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: purplemer

Someone has to buy the products the robots produce. If you eliminate the bottom 90% of income earners, the 10%'ers suddenly become the 99%'ers. It's all relative.

The logical argument against minimum wage increases.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: purplemer

Someone has to buy the products the robots produce. If you eliminate the bottom 90% of income earners, the 10%'ers suddenly become the 99%'ers. It's all relative.

The logical argument against minimum wage increases.

Minimum wage increases aren't aimed at removing the bottom x%, someone is always going to be classified as the poor. They're primarily aimed at shrinking income inequality. Income inequality is like salt, a little bit is good, it adds flavor to life. Too much and you begin to choke. It's good at shrinking the gap between the bottom and the middle, but the top is currently so disproportinately high that they're untouchable outside of tax rates.

originally posted by: soficrow
NOTE: A 2015 study found that 45 percent of US jobs could be replaced right now by current technology.

So what do you do in a world with no jobs for billions of people? Or in the US, with no jobs for 45% of the working population? (That's what? In millions?)

Move to jobs and income sources that can't be taken over by robots. Generally these are more creative type jobs as well as decision maker and management jobs (just WHICH driverless car, for instance, should be selected for fleet vehicles?.) Here we are dealing with data that's too murky and information that's too disconnected for a machine to collate and process.

Technology will always replace human labor. The trick for humans is to decide what's going to be obsolescent (mule "skinners" who drove mule trains for example) and move to a profession where jobs are on the rise (I moved into computers for that reason.)

a reply to: Byrd

...Technology will always replace human labor. The trick for humans is to decide what's going to be obsolescent (mule "skinners" who drove mule trains for example) and move to a profession where jobs are on the rise (I moved into computers for that reason.)

Good advice, but the facts remain:

1. The vast majority of the new jobs, if not all of them, will require computer and programming skills;
2. Many people do not have the requisite abilities;
3. Even if all the unemployed did have the needed computer skills, there simply will not be enough jobs for everyone. Nowhere near.

So the questions remain: What do you do in a world with no jobs for billions of people? Or in the US, with no jobs for 45% of the working population? [At 45% job loss, about 110,000,000 people. And that's just the immediate potential.]

...There are 2 ways to look at this problem:

* What do I do, personally?

* What do we do, as the human species?

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Byrd

...Technology will always replace human labor. The trick for humans is to decide what's going to be obsolescent (mule "skinners" who drove mule trains for example) and move to a profession where jobs are on the rise (I moved into computers for that reason.)

Good advice, but the facts remain:

1. The vast majority of the new jobs, if not all of them, will require computer and programming skills;
2. Many people do not have the requisite abilities;
3. Even if all the unemployed did have the needed computer skills, there simply will not be enough jobs for everyone. Nowhere near.

So the questions remain: What do you do in a world with no jobs for billions of people? Or in the US, with no jobs for 45% of the working population? [At 45% job loss, about 110,000,000 people. And that's just the immediate potential.]

...There are 2 ways to look at this problem:

* What do I do, personally?

* What do we do, as the human species?

* People need to educate themselves (I see a lot of silly things written about robots here on ATS) -- play with an AI chatbot, learn to forge sentences and responses for an AI chatbot, explore apps for smartphones, build simple robots, visit a makerspace, become involved in wonder. And take classes in the emergent technology of your field. You can check out magazines for your profession or simply lurk on Reddit or so to find out. A number of my artist friends in animation lost out because they didn't want to go digital... and the industry left them in the dust.

* As a species, we in America need to take a deep breath and a lesson from Japan and many other countries. Every time someone here said "Robot" the American knee-jerk reaction is "OMG! DANGER! RUN AWAY!" (Not looking at you, but this is something I know from research and from talking with presenters who are trying to introduce robots as pets/companions/household chore-takers to the American public.) Elsewhere in the world (and particularly in Asia) the reaction is "Oh cool! What can it do! How can I play with it!"

That simple change of ideas makes a difference in the outcome. If automation is seen as a potential instead of a threat, you are better positioned to make use of (and to control) it. If you bomb it into obliteration or run away from it instead of embracing it, you will end up being swept into backwater poverty as the rest of the world forges ahead.

a reply to: Byrd

* People need to educate themselves ...

... Every time someone here said "Robot" the American knee-jerk reaction is "OMG! DANGER! RUN AWAY!" ...Elsewhere in the world (and particularly in Asia) the reaction is "Oh cool! What can it do! How can I play with it!"

That simple change of ideas makes a difference in the outcome. If automation is seen as a potential instead of a threat, you are better positioned to make use of (and to control) it. If you bomb it into obliteration or run away from it instead of embracing it, you will end up being swept into backwater poverty as the rest of the world forges ahead.

I agree with you. But - I also believe we're facing major job losses and need to reconfigure society.

Will let you know when I figure it out.