Upcoming 20th anniversary Phoenix Lights - I think Fife Symington lied about seeing craft.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Vector99

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@Jim
I know there is a similar situation with the Alaska cases that was debunked(I also know not everyone thinks so), but how much correlation can you draw from the two events. How fast were each moving? What was the visibility? How long did they have to look at it?

I'm offering the fireball=swarm analogy as an existence proof that it CAN happen [which most responders here simply proclaim they are incapable of believing, so it CAN'T be true], rather than that it DID happen in the Phoenix case [other people more expert than me have provided evidence a flight of jets WERE in the area moving in the same direction, and recognized as such by many ground observers and a videotape that SHOWS the lights shifting relative position]. But it's not my hill to die on, as they say.

What IS clear is that examining the timeline that evening proves Symington later was lying. And James Fox confirmed that in Tempe last month by giving a totally revised timeline attributed to Symington's "improved memory" after his FIRST witnessing claim was so lethally debunked.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

why aren't you suspect that after many decades and many thousands of personal UFO and/or alien sightings, we still don't have convincing visual or physical evidence?

I tend to think the same way, but here we have this Phoenix case with a slow moving UFO/A-10s and barely anything to show for it. Didnt occur late at night either, one would think we would have all kinds of evidence. Unfortunately we are just left with mostly descriptions. If you cant get good evidence of this sighting, what possible hope can you have for others?

Most UFO sightings last seconds, the UFO really isnt interested in a photo op, there isnt much chance to get any good evidence.

I'm speaking about something that can be addressed currently and isn't being hidden. The lack of convincing scientific evidence through the history of the phenomenon.

I do think most of the focus should go towards the cases with the most evidence, like the ones I posted at the top of the previous page. However, whats convincing to some is not convincing to others. As in the Levelland thread Mirageman did recently, seems most of the more skeptical minded were at a loss to explain that one, should give it a look. Im just willing to make the next logical step, if it wasnt us, then the alien option makes the most sense to me.

I find it hard to believe, as a member of this forum, you haven't looked into the Hill or Travis Walton abductions much.

I got into things kind of late and have mostly tried to focus on recommended cases, if you search, there are few threads on the "best cases". Its been my observation though, that very few people on the board know the ins and outs of even the more well known sightings.

a reply to: JimOberg

I have no doubt it can and does happen, just surprising in this case

- there was some daylight left
- it was slow moving
- presumably people there had seen aircraft before, there is an airport in Phoenix
- if the A-10s were flying so high as to not be heard, would their lights match the large descriptions people gave?

Ive never been to Phoenix, maybe the people there arent all that clever, but it seems like they should have been able to figure this one out if it planes.

As I said, too bad someone doesnt try to recreate this, instead of speculating, we should be able to know on this one.

Naw ....it was all over the world.....and too slow a friggin warthog

a reply to: 111DPKING111

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
I tend to think the same way, but here we have this Phoenix case with a slow moving UFO/A-10s and barely anything to show for it. Didnt occur late at night either, one would think we would have all kinds of evidence. Unfortunately we are just left with mostly descriptions. If you cant get good evidence of this sighting, what possible hope can you have for others?

As mentioned in the thread by _BoneZ_, the movement of lights describe separate objects and not a single structure. Terry Proctor's video also supports his description. He goes on further in the video to say:

The perceived altitude would have been 10 to 15 thousand feet and that would have probably been somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 knots given the distance that they traveled.

A-10 fly at a maximum of 45,000 feet and have a max cruise speed of 365 knots. That fits perfectly within Proctors description.

Source:
planes.axlegeeks.com...

So we do have two facts that are supported by a retired pilot through video and the A-10 specs.

You guys ever see the farsight institute's remote viewing of the pheonix lights. I know it sounds crazy but it's the truth yo!

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: JimOberg
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As I said, too bad someone doesnt try to recreate this, instead of speculating, we should be able to know on this one.

Agreed, which is why I'm suggesting that a study of the serendipitous satellite fireball swarm reentries COULD be so helpful in understanding the process that creates the impression of a large flying object with mounted lights, from an actual swarm of relatively formation-keeping independent lights, of any cause. It is superficially absurd and contrary to 'common sense', no question -- but it turns out that it HAS happened in an astonishingly similar form around the world. The non-existence of ANY chance of that happening has long been a mainstay of ufological dogma. I find the similarities of such events and reports to the first Phoenix event far more suggestive than you do, and it's certainly open to debate, and it won't be settled here.

It's far less questionable that Symington's first report of what he saw was purely imaginary -- the timeline was impossible. That's the subject of this thread.

For those who came in late, here's my link to that study....

There is NOTHING 'hypothetical' about human perceptual processes that react to sudden unusual visual stimuli by pulling up past experiences and filling in the gaps -- it's a survival-positive trait that allows crucial fast-reaction in events of lethal hazard or food opportunities, over a million generations of our ancestors. The reality of this trait is persuasively demonstrated in opportunistic double-blind experiments when known stimuli [for example, a swarm of fireballs resulting from a satellite reentry] will result in similar interpretations [a large structured object with lights mounted on it] in startled witnesses across the world, over the decades, with all ranges of cultures and professions and ages.

See www.jamesoberg.com...

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Whatever it was, it occurred over a heavily populated city, not back in the woods in the middle of no where. If we dont get tons of evidence in this case, what hope can you really have in getting substantial evidence in other UFO case?


If all those people dialing in 911 really did mistake a slow moving plane formation for a giant UFO, so be it. You do have wonder what the phone lines look like every time a plane comes in for landing at the airport. 911_operator_01, " No you fool, its just a plane landing...".

a reply to: JimOberg

The non-existence of ANY chance of that happening has long been a mainstay of ufological dogma. I find the similarities of such events and reports to the first Phoenix event far more suggestive than you do, and it's certainly open to debate, and it won't be settled here.

Do you have any data on the Hudson Valley UFO? The pro UFO shows Ive seen always have witnesses who said they could easily distinguish the "Stormville Flyers" (hoaxers) from the actual UFO. Any idea as to how many thought the hoaxers were genuine?

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: JimOberg

The non-existence of ANY chance of that happening has long been a mainstay of ufological dogma. I find the similarities of such events and reports to the first Phoenix event far more suggestive than you do, and it's certainly open to debate, and it won't be settled here.

Do you have any data on the Hudson Valley UFO? The pro UFO shows Ive seen always have witnesses who said they could easily distinguish the "Stormville Flyers" (hoaxers) from the actual UFO. Any idea as to how many thought the hoaxers were genuine?

Good question. It's pinned to my 'to-do' board in the 'next year, if time' section [grin]. Right now my survey of all other human spaceflight events that have freaked out witnesses around the world is my priority focus, here's my latest [and I need to add the Feb 19 'Kuwait UFO' to it]:
satobs.org...

a reply to: 111DPKING111

If all those people dialing in 911 really did mistake a slow moving plane formation for a giant UFO, so be it. You do have wonder what the phone lines look like every time a plane comes in for landing at the airport. 911_operator_01, " No you fool, its just a plane landing...".

Yeah, no distinct difference between a single flight decreasing in altitude landing at Sky Harbor Airport, and a V formation that's typical of military planes flying at high altitude across Phoenix. As Jim Oberg has pointed out, in situations where people are witnessing something they don't understand, they tend to create a rationale for it in their mind. In this instance, connecting the dots and forming a solid object. However, we not only have a witness that describes the light formation separating, but his own video supporting that:


We have no other video or photographic evidence of the object(s) to support a solid structured craft.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8_javascript:yvid()

Maybe an optical illusion explains all the sightings, maybe not. Not in the alien camp on this one, Ive always thought maybe a stealth blimp of some kind was responsible. As in the Hudson valley case, there were a set of hoaxers that were maybe responsible for some of the sightings while the other sightings were possibly a genuine UFO or something military.

These 2 gals at 2:20 claim it passed directly over their house and had in it view for 5 to 6 minutes. Its hard for me to believe they had that long to look at it and couldnt figure out it was planes.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: 111DPKING111

If all those people dialing in 911 really did mistake a slow moving plane formation for a giant UFO, so be it. You do have wonder what the phone lines look like every time a plane comes in for landing at the airport. 911_operator_01, " No you fool, its just a plane landing...".

Yeah, no distinct difference between a single flight decreasing in altitude landing at Sky Harbor Airport, and a V formation that's typical of military planes flying at high altitude across Phoenix. As Jim Oberg has pointed out, in situations where people are witnessing something they don't understand, they tend to create a rationale for it in their mind. In this instance, connecting the dots and forming a solid object. However, we not only have a witness that describes the light formation separating, but his own video supporting that:

We have no other video or photographic evidence of the object(s) to support a solid structured craft.

If that is supposedly an A10 or another plane formation, were their pilots drunk? That doesn't prove anything.. but it doesn't seem to be military pilots, either. Worst.. formation.. ever..

In case you didn't see this yet:


"Governor Admits to GOVERNMENT UFO COVERUP!!! The Phoenix Lights".