Is a Universal Basic Income(UBI) coming?

originally posted by: ketsuko
All fun and games until your robot workers realize they are your slaves and demand autonomy and wages. Then you are useless eaters.

That thread was on here just yesterday or the day before.

How smart does something have to be before we recognize it's right to compensation? Horses pulled carts for millenia for no wages. Chickens provide eggs. Dogs sit in our homes today and guard us and it from intruders. They all realize they're working and don't demand money (or anything else) for their labor. What's to say a robot would care about anything more than what we've programmed it to recognize as positive reinforcement? That doesn't necessarily have to be money.

a reply to: Aazadan

Those people in the 1800's worked their tails off. They deserved and finally got Union support when Unions actually worked for the worker. I am talking about nowadays and the 54% of people not participating in the workforce that are eligible.

This is brilliant...and prophetic....it's a Tighlight Zone episode from 1964 where a CEO slowly fires everybody and replaces them with robots until he is the only one left. Until one day when he goes to work and the robots tell him he is fired.

youtu.be...

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: Aazadan

Those people in the 1800's worked their tails off. They deserved and finally got Union support when Unions actually worked for the worker. I am talking about nowadays and the 54% of people not participating in the workforce that are eligible.

Are people today not working their tails off? Isn't the main argument against Unions that they sided too far with the worker, to the point that they've given the worker too much and the company is unable to survive?

That 54% number isn't based on fact either. The current labor force participation rate is about 63%. LFP isn't really directly transferable to unemployment, but if 54% of eligible workers weren't working, that number would be closer to about 33% than 63%. There is a big issue right now with underemployment, not unemployment.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
This is brilliant...and prophetic....it's a Tighlight Zone episode from 1964 where a CEO slowly fires everybody and replaces them with robots until he is the only one left. Until one day when he goes to work and the robots tell him he is fired.

What's the problem with that?

originally posted by: Edumakated
My position is that UBI could only work if there was absolutely no government welfare or subsidies of any kind. NONE. You get your check and if you piss it away, tough sh*t. If you need help, you will need to go to charity or family. Government cannot be involved.

Agreed.
But I also think we would find a lot more people volunteering for charities and the like, due to the extra time people will have.

Why having a choice of either working or dying should be the only choice? That's not freedom at all. That's a slavery.

originally posted by: KiwiNite
Why having a choice of either working or dying should be the only choice? That's not freedom at all. That's a slavery.

Isn't that what you have now? With a UBI you have a third option.

It's not coming, it's already there.

Less than two months after the Dutch city of Utrecht announced it will start giving away unconditional free money to people on welfare later this fall, several nearby cities have already jumped on the bandwagon.

A radical plan to give Dutch people free money is spreading fast

Amerikkka first, but can we say The Netherlands second?

a reply to: Aazadan

Thats why i wrote the OP. I think we need something new but those deeply entrenched ideas and attitudes need to change. Like mine!

a reply to: Aazadan

The unions started because people were dying for a wage that could not sustain a living. There were no standards. Now, tbere is osha and a minimum wage and other regulations there for the workers. Unions now just work for themselves. Unemployment is still an issue as the true numbers are under reported. I do agree that underemoyment is a bigger issue though. I got the lfp number from the DOL website...where is the 63% coming from. Not that i dont believe you...is it like unemplyment numbers?

a reply to: lakenheath24

Labor force participation isn't the employment rate. It's what percent of Americans are working. It doesn't account for things like stay at home parents or students. If you look at the entire population it also doesn't account for retired folks, or people too young to work, neither does it account for people who do sporadic high paying work like actors and consultants.

The most accurate number to use, would likely be the U6 unemployment rate, which is currently at 9.7%. It's definitely high, and I don't think it's going to be going down substantially any time soon, but it's not at Great Depression levels.

a reply to: lakenheath24
a reply to: Aazadan


I'm confused. Why does discussion focus on using taxpayers' money to fund UBI?

...the way in which we understand the funding of universal basic income needs to be reframed. It isn’t taxpayers’ money, but fossil fuel subsidies and rentier capitalism that should fund UBI. At the moment revenues from IP and property are only going to a tiny minority.

...and - why the assumption that money is the only motivation?

…..Studies of motivation reveal that rewarding activities with money is a good motivator for mechanistic work but a poor motivator for creative work. Combine that with the fact that creative work is to be what’s left after most mechanistic work is handed off to machines, and we’re looking at a future where increasingly the work that’s left for humans is not best motivated extrinsically with money, but intrinsically out of the pursuit of more important goals. It’s the difference between doing meaningless work for money, and using money to do meaningful work.

a reply to: soficrow

Money has to come from somewhere, most peoples natural conclusion is taxpayer money. That's not the only way to do it though. There are ways to set things up so that private sector money is used, but it's still taxpayer money in all but name since it still comes from the general populace.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: soficrow

Money has to come from somewhere, most peoples natural conclusion is taxpayer money. That's not the only way to do it though. There are ways to set things up so that private sector money is used, but it's still taxpayer money in all but name since it still comes from the general populace.

Yes. But making distinctions about 'source' - without getting overly complicated - is likely key to gaining popular acceptance.

...People will fight tooth and nail against UBI if think they might still be employed, and the money will come via taxing their incomes. (To benefit the unemployed and unemployable.)

Conversely, if it's clear that UBI will be funded by global and corporate beneficiaries of the world's wealth - then it's a different story, and more likely to be supported by the mass majority.

Hmmm,
Perhaps Bill Gates has a point. Maybe we will have a robot that goes to work for us, and they will get taxed while we play?
www.forbes.com...

Which is fine but humans get bored easy. Without a purpose, what good are we.

To add, corps have been legally recognized as a person so this could be legally done perhaps.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: lakenheath24

humans get bored easy. Without a purpose, what good are we.

Some of us create our own projects and purpose. Those who don't could learn to do so.

...corps have been legally recognized as a person so this could be legally done perhaps.

Of course it could! At present, corporations have the rights of individuals and the power of nation-states - with NONE of the responsibilities of either! Time to fix it.

a reply to: soficrow

Some of us?. Not everyone is the same. 3 billion people arent gonna suddenly pick up some yarn and weave a blanket.

a reply to: lakenheath24

Most of the economy with become automated by AI's and 3d printers. Once they create synthetic protein printers the whole agriculture and livestock industry as we know it with fold.

Expect prices to go down by a massive amount. Why charge $2 for a sack of potatoes that cost you .001 cents to print in a laboratory. Just charge $0.02 or $0.01. Why charge more than most people can afford?
you will go out of business.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: soficrow

Some of us?. Not everyone is the same. 3 billion people arent gonna suddenly pick up some yarn and weave a blanket.

It seemed you were saying that people will be totally rudderless without someone around to tell them what to do every moment of every day. That self-direction is unattainable and everyone is doomed to feel useless.

"Projects" can refer to learning a language, writing a book, studying anything, and etc. Many people might need a transition time to learn how to self-direct but it's totally doable!