Radiation at Fukushima nuclear plant at unimaginable levels

a reply to: Phage

enenews is quite doomy and gloomy.

Yet, the insult was directed at me.

Moreover, Enenews merely reprinted the article by Asahi Shimbun, Japan's oldest and largest national daily newspaper.

So where are you getting it hadn't reached the containment vessel?

I knew your political posts were screwy, but didn't realize that included your science posts as well.

Again, they say:

No. 2 reactor at the plant appears far worse than previously thought… mages showed black lumps scattered on a wire-mesh grating in the lower part of the containment vessel… This indicates that the fuel melted through bottom of the pressure vessel, spilled through the grating and fell on the floor of the containment vessel… The images could show only part of the melted fuel in the No. 2 reactor. And there is still no indication on how widespread the black lumps were strewn, their volume and state.

Thats just being inflammatory. Say it melted through the pressure vessel, its still inside of the containment which other than leaking water, is fully intact. The building is doing its job. Also it just says that there are lumps of potential fuel, not the entire core...so that would indicate the majority is still inside the pressure vessel. As time goes on the decay heat will diminish more. As that happens it will remain equally radioactive, but it won't be producing as much heat.

a reply to: truttseeker
134Cs is the real concern because, with its short half life it is more dangerous than 137Cs. It is also, because of its short half life, distinguishable from the 137Cs produced by atomic weapons testing. But seawater testing near the plant has been showing a very low plateau of Cs levels for quite some time. To me (and actual experts), that indicates that contamination which is entering the ocean is not getting very far in at any levels which would be of concern in the short or long term.


No. Not an expert.

a reply to: loam

So where are you getting it hadn't reached the containment vessel?

What I said was this:

Imagery from #2 has been returned which indicates at least some of the core material has not even reached the containment barrier.

That is based upon this:
www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: Phage

So am I going to lose all my hair living in the west?

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Phage

So am I going to lose all my hair living in the west?

Yes but it will have little to do with radiation

a reply to: Phage

originally posted by: Phage
Imagery from #2 has been returned which indicates at least some of the core material has not even reached the containment barrier.

ETA: I see now you've deleted your last question. So you say one thing, but the source says another. Where are you getting that it hasn't reached the containment vessel?

Exactly. Any long lived fission product is going to either sink immediately and buildup close to the site, or move a little bit with currents and such, but then sink...to the bottom of the ocean. People have to realize there is an insane amount of naturally occurring radiation that we're exposed to every day. If you get an X-ray or take a flight across the country, you'd get an exponentially higher dose than if you were walking around outside somewhere in japan. The issue is, we have levels that are considered safe for ionizing radiation, which are insanely conservative to ensure that other than by coincidence, you'll never see health effects from ionizing radiation. So if you get close to those in the public we evacuate to make sure were definitely safe.


No you'll keep your hair, and feel free to eat all the fish you want.

Source, am a Nuke in the US navy, and operate/teach this stuff every day.

a reply to: loam

See edit.
I am stumblefingered tonight.

Imagery from #2 has been returned which indicates at least some of the core material has not even reached the containment barrier.

a reply to: Phage

The Guardian, really?

Explain to me how this paragraph makes sense?

If Tepco can confirm that the black mass comprises melted fuel, it would represent a significant breakthrough in a recovery effort that has been hit by mishaps, the buildup of huge quantities of contaminated water, and soaring costs.

Compare with Asahi:

TEPCO did not expect the camera to detect possible nuclear fuel debris below the pressure vessel.

But the images showed black lumps scattered on a wire-mesh grating in the lower part of the containment vessel, which encloses the pressure vessel. This indicates that the fuel melted through bottom of the pressure vessel, spilled through the grating and fell on the floor of the containment vessel.

The grating, which was used by maintenance workers before the disaster, was partially bent.

The images could show only part of the melted fuel in the No. 2 reactor. And there is still no indication on how widespread the black lumps were strewn, their volume and state.

You're running with the Guardian's description that it represents a significant breakthrough in the recovery effort???

Wow. Have you considered maybe you're too optimistic or in denial about the sober nature of the problem?

a reply to: Phage

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: loam

Imagery from #2 has been returned which indicates at least some of the core material has not even reached the containment barrier.

Lol. That's like describing someone stabbed in the heart by a knife by saying at least some of the blade didn't make its way through.

Wow. Just wow.

I can see why you like the Guardian's description better. Your post would be right at home with them. Lol

It could actually give a really good indication of how stable the core is, pace of cooling, decay heat generation. These things then feed into how to actually get in and dispose of the core. If it is in lumps, and not actually moving, and nothing else is moving or adding, then it means the core is cool enough to be a solid mass again, which is good because that means decay heat generation has dropped markedly.

Theres no arguing the complexity, or how bad this situation really is. A lot of people try to overstate how bad it actually is because a vast majority of the population have no clue what they're talking about in regards to nuclear power or how it works. So they see statements and then jump to a wild conclusion.

a reply to: truttseeker

Well, I'm no nuclear expert but I don't think it takes being one to understand that so far what TEPCO says is a whole lot of wishful thinking.

They couldn't see all of the melted fuel, and what they could see revealed unexpectedly black lumps scattered on a wire-mesh grating in the lower part of the containment vessel and on the floor of the containment vessel.

Their robot couldn't withstand the 650 sieverts they say were measured, so if they're having trouble even seeing what is going on, how likely are they to really have the full damage assessments correct?

Cleaner robot pulled from Fukushima reactor due to radiation

A remote-controlled "cleaning" robot that entered one of three wrecked Fukushima reactor containment chambers Thursday had to be pulled out before completing its mission due to camera glitches most likely caused by high radiation.
It was the first time a robot entered the chamber inside the Unit 2 reactor since the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami critically damaged the Fukushima Da-ichi nuclear plant.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said the intent was to inspect and clean a passage before another robot does a fuller examination to assess details of the damage to the structure and fuel inside.

TEPCO needs to know the melted fuel's exact location and condition and other structural damage in each of the three wrecked reactor in order to figure out the best and safest way to remove them. It is part of the plant's decommissioning work, which is expected to take decades.

The robot went only partway on a narrow bridge into a space under the core that TEPCO wants to inspect closely. It crawled down the passage while blowing off some debris with a water spray and peeling them with a scraper on its head, and about two hours later, the two cameras on the robot suddenly developed a lot of noise and its image quickly darkened — a sign of a mechanical glitch from high radiation.

The outcome means the second robot will encounter more obstacles and have less time for examination on its mission, currently planned for later this month.

a reply to: truttseeker

How can the core be stable?
These were 3 100% core meltdowns...
Nobody and I mean nobody knows where the material is...
And nobody has the knowledge or ability to do a damn thing about it...
The dark lumps are most likely metal that was melted then cooled...
Don't kid yourself the problem is real and it's not going away...
And you wouldn't even know if you ate something that was contaminated we have no senses to detect the radiation... And even many years from now when you die from cancer because of it nobody could ever prove it was because of fukushima...
There is no wild conclusions drawn here that is just the dire reality which we now have to deal with...
It will still be many years from now before we see cancer rates soar because of it...
But im sure there will be some convenient excuses drawn...
The rise should start showing by 2027 and hit an apex another 40 years after that...
Although it may show signs of rise much sooner because the effects are cumulative people who have
diets which could contain contamination will have the effects sped up because of it...
Lets stop lying to one another here... Its not that bad... Tastes fine to me... Im not dead yet... The stuff is heavy... Yada yada yada... All a bunch of lies to make yourself feel better...
The problem is all too real and right now there is no solution and its only going to get worse before it gets better...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

But at least 'some of the core material has not even reached the containment barrier.'

We're good.

Lol

a reply to: jadedANDcynical
That's right. The big "Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake" thread is now fully accessible. I've got it open now and pages are loading fine. But just a note for anyone: it's a huge thread (1400 pages) with many links, images etc. So it might take a few seconds to load.

Also, some images won't load as they're via old links to a prior version of ATS, or even via off-site sources that are no longer available. However it's still well worth a look through for anyone who has (lots of) time. And ATS members were calling this "Nuclear Emergency" a meltdown scenario way, way before Tepco finally admitted that was the case.

It's worth reading just to see the incredible amount of obfuscation, double-speak, denial and outright lying by Tepco and other authorities directly involved in "managing" this disaster.

With regard to the current situation, when I read Loam's OP I had trouble just getting my head around a radiation level of 530 sieverts per hour. That's just insanely high. But then we had this post from Loam where he quotes a report that on Thursday last, the level was 650 sieverts.

No wonder the camera they were using went on the fritz. It was designed to withstand cumulative radiation exposure up to 1,000 sieverts. So at those massive levels it was toast in about 90 minutes.

This just helps to show how complex this problem is. No humans can get near this radiation source and live, so they have to use robots. But it's almost impossible to shield their electronics enough, especially cameras. Obviously, an optical camera requires a way for light to get in through its lens. Where light can enter, so can massive doses of radiation. So, it soon gets fried. And if the engineers can't see what's going on in the worst affected areas, they have an almighty job trying to figure how to deal with them.

a reply to: loam

I understand people wanting and even wishing this was not a problem or even an issue...

We are so far from good its not even funny...

Atleast in Chernobyl many people gave their lives to impede the spread of the radiation... But the problem is not solved there either... I believe the death count attributed to it is over a million lives...

But fukusima is a different problem altogether people cant get close enough to work long enough to even hinder it...As you know even machinery can't function near it for long enough...
Its a runaway and whats worse is it contaminating major food sources... Its going to work its way up the food chain from the smallest all the way to humans...
The next even mag 6 earth quake could force all of northern Japan to be evacuated... And possibly see millions of tons of contaminated water find its way to the pacific very fast...
While all this stuff sounds like worse case scenarios... they are not... these are more like eventuality...
The worse case scenarios are more then I even care to think about...

a reply to: Phage

"But even if the simulation had proven to be accurate, those levels are far below dangerous levels.."

And exactly how much man made radiation to you consider safe?

There are many varying opinions on so called "safe dosage radiation"

If you want to talk abut how much radiation you receive from a plane flight or eating a bag of potato chips....go for it.

Man made is an entirely different ballgame.