Does God Matter?

WARNING: the content of the post is not for the light hearted. If you have problems facing religious discussion and serious questioning, do NOT read onward. I do NOT want to discuss your religion, only your opinions on religion.



Be honest, if you gave up religion right now, would you be struck down by lightning? No.

If you made a bad moral choice, would you be struck down by lightning? No.

If you cursed God's name out loud, would you be struck down by lightning? No.

If you saved 10 people from a burning building, will you be blessed from the heavens and glow like gold? No.

If you do anything, outside of holding a very large metal pole during a thunderstorm, will you be struck down by lightning? No.

If God does not punish or bless anyone, why should we make an effort towards any form of praise for "His works?" Seriously. You know that your life is not at stake for the choices you make (in most cases) and you will not be punished by God, so why bother? The truth about Eternity is beyond any of us. No one has come back from the dead and said, "Avoid Hell, dude!" Putting what the pastor/preacher/cleric/pope/religious figure said aside, using your own personal knowledge, what motivates one to work for and praise God/gods/spirits/figure heads that have done nothing for you?

I watch daily as the world goes downhill, even though I want to deny it and say that things are "ok." Religious people say that it is the fault of the "other" people for not following God/god's commandments. I say, "Bulls**t. It is the fault of the people for being dumba**es. The devil didn't make you do it. The tv didn't make you do it. You just did it! You are mad, angry, spiteful, vengeful, crazy, stupid, perverted... whatever the case may be, it is your fault. It is also your fault for placing blaim on someone else and your fault for not doing anything to solve it."

If I die tomorrow, I don't think God is going to send me to Hell because I didn't suck up to Him while I was alive. I'm not His slave. I'm not His bath toy. I'm not His soap opera. My life, my choice. If he thinks I'm any of the above, then I rather be burning than serve a tyrant. Using the idea of punishment to ensure my slavery is evil. So either God is evil or I'm right. God is only an outside force, an observer. I don't deny the existence, only the importance of God as a religious figure upon a life.

What do you think? If you gave up God tomorrow, would you be struck by lightning? Would you be punished like a slave? Would you be outcasted by others who are "slaves?"

this is the whole reason i quit givin a damn. religion isn't about paying tribute to god, or fighting and killing another people, because you thing your invisible mans way of controlling people is better than the others. wars are faught over dumb #. religion jihad taco sauce? waht the hell is wrong with these people?

we all die, who cares what we do until we get to that point!!!

Ummm, Your full of Shi*. Ok now I'm done with the name calling.


Um no God will not punish you for not believing in him. Why would he? That would be making him seem like an evil man. Believe in me or I will strike you down!!!


God has blessed all of us with life. But sure if you dont want to worship him he wont punish you. So really if you wanted to wait until your old age to worship that would probably work. "If you saved 10 people from a burning building, will you be blessed from the heavens and glow like gold? No." I actually firmly believe that if you did it to save the people you probably would have a free ticket to heaven. Saving one of Gods greatest creations has to be worth something.



Valhall I need your assisstance on this one.

Protector, having read your subject matter, I don't know why you have come to your conclusions but I will try to give an honest reply.

I beleive that after reading your comments that you have made a 'choice'. In light of that 'choice', you will not be struck by lightning, etc.

G-d does not work that way. If you 'choose' not to except Him or believe in Him, or choose to ignore Him or even choose to condemn Him, that IS your ultimate 'choice'. Personally, religion does not accurately portray G-d as G-d truly is; nor does religion accurately portray G-d's true nature and character. G-d requires nothing for He has everything.

You see, many , many people spend the bulk of their lives searching for the 'right' way to worship, to obey, and to serve G-d. The irony of all this is that G-d does not want our 'worship', He does not need our obedience for He has need of nothing.

These behaviors (worship, obey, serve) are the behaviors historically demanded by their subjects by monarchs---usually egomaniacal, insecure, tyrannical monarchs at that. They're not 'Godly' demands in any sense---and it seems remarkable that the world hasn't by now concluded that the demands are counterfeit, having nothing to do with the needs or desires of 'Deity'.

'Deity'---G-d--- has no needs. All 'That Is' is exactly that: all that is. He, therefore wants, or lacks, nothing---by definition. If you choose to believe in a G-d who somehow needs something---and has such hurt feelings if He doesn't get it that He punishes those from whom He expected to receive it---then you choose to believe in a g-d much smaller than what G-d really is.

Its really sad that 'religion' and the purpose for it has been manipulated so much and taken G-d's love out of context in such manner that it actually almost stands and acts in 'defiance' and almost in 'mockery' of G-d and what G-d really desires for each of us. G-d doesn't desire Man to 'fear Him and then out of that 'fear', worship, obey and serve. It is 'love', and from 'love' comes true insight into the 'real' nature and character of G-d and His true desire and purpose for each of us.

Sad.


regards
seekerof

i just realised somethin...

our humanity, we're human because we can make that choice and not fear the consequences. why didn't i see this before

Well, phoenix, no sarcasm intended, but thats pretty correct.

I merely tried to give an honest reply, though from my opinion. I didn't belittle him, call him any names or even try to convert him for that matter..... I respected his views and his opinion.

Peace

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Its really sad that 'religion' and the purpose for it has been manipulated so much and taken G-d's love out of context in such manner that it actually almost stands and acts in 'defiance' and almost in 'mockery' of G-d and what G-d really desires for each of us. G-d doesn't desire Man to 'fear Him and then out of that 'fear', worship, obey and serve. It is 'love', and from 'love' comes true insight into the 'real' nature and character of G-d and His true desire and purpose for each of us.

Sorry if I was mistaken...though I do feel this, it was merely an opinion.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Sorry if I was mistaken...though I do feel this, it was merely an opinion.

regards
seekerof

What you had to say was great and right on Seeker. I just thought a smiley face spoke louder than words.

Protector, in some ways you are right, no you won't be struck by lightening if you curse God or break a moral law. Thats easy enough to see.

However the mistake in your argument is thinking that what you do now ends now. The effects of your actions now are 'lived out' AFTER you die.

So if you live wrong now, you will not notice it, however the bible clearly shows in numerous places that the consequences of your actions are felt after death.


Still following God does bring a blessing, and although you may go through life not noticing any effects of the wrongs you are doing you will also not notice the blessings or good things that you are missing out on.

Also the quality of your life "may" be better when you follow God, not many Chirsitians commit suicide, as you are strenghtened and protected through the hard times.

So what you are missing out on now through your actions and what you will miss out on in the future are far greater than the "freedom" you think you are experiencing living as you do.

yet time lasts forever, the universe goes on and in the end it really depends on what you belive.

i'll end up in the Allysion Fields because that is what i've taken a fancy to.

death is a dream

Tell me how you know that eternity does not exist.

What is your source for making that statement?
Your own experience?
Someone elses experience?
Your "feelings"?
What do you base that statement on?

Originally posted by phoenix_cross
yet time lasts forever, the universe goes on and in the end it really depends on what you belive.

i'll end up in the Allysion Fields because that is what i've taken a fancy to.

death is a dream

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by Netchicken]

Notice: Anyone can respond to what is typed below. This is a free discussion and introduces many tough subjects. If you have relavent information to add, please do so.


I believe that some of you have passed judgement on me... probably a self-assembled religious assumption.

I never stated in my original post that I ever "had" or "gave up" on a religion. My topic is simply for discussion, not for creating personal assumptions.

That said...


Nightwalker:
"Um no God will not punish you for not believing in him. Why would he? That would be making him seem like an evil man. Believe in me or I will strike you down!!! "

hehe.

"So really if you wanted to wait until your old age to worship that would probably work."

You are making the assumption that I don't have religion. Secondly, you assume that old people must have religion. Naughty, naughty.

"'If you saved 10 people from a burning building, will you be blessed from the heavens and glow like gold? No.' I actually firmly believe that if you did it to save the people you probably would have a free ticket to heaven. Saving one of Gods greatest creations has to be worth something."

Free ticket to heaven, eh? Ok, define heaven... and please don't make it sound like an opium den. Also, who says we are the greatest creation? That may be an assumption drawn from the Bible/Tora/Koran, but I'm talking religion in general... let's not get any more specific into a particular religion. Lastly, you are saying that souls or life (human body included) has a value. Value is a judgement. It is also a capitalistic ideal. If worth exists, surely you don't think a billionaire would save your life over watching his company collapse? By this assumption, your life does not have ultimate value. Value is a bad assumption to use when referring to life. Be careful. Now it's your turn again.


phoenix_cross:
"we all die, who cares what we do until we get to that point!!!"

You do. The people around you do. I do. Opinions and actions effect others (directly or indirectly). Choice is either an ultimate gift or an ultimate flaw. This discussion is an attempt to narrow in on why you have choice, especially to choose religion if God does exist (or even if He doesn't). As Nightwalker was stating, people put "worth" or a value on life, but is the value on life or is it on choices? These are serious questions and deserve serious answers. What do you think?

"death is a dream"

... And the Aboriganese believe that life is a dream. For anyone who expects to wake up tomorrow, are you waking from a dream or falling asleep from the real reality? On second thought, maybe when you die you wake up from the dream that we call "life." For anyone who has a religion, I'd assume this is true of the nature of the "afterlife." By your statement, if life is a dream and you have to be dead to dream, then we are dead.


Seekerof:
A truly loaded paragraph for the both of us-
"G-d does not work that way. If you 'choose' not to except Him or believe in Him, or choose to ignore Him or even choose to condemn Him, that IS your ultimate 'choice'. Personally, religion does not accurately portray G-d as G-d truly is; nor does religion accurately portray G-d's true nature and character. G-d requires nothing for He has everything."

Don't make the assumption that you know for certain how God works. It is my "ultimate" choice? That assumes that we are burdened with the choice, for one. For two, there is no greater choice to be made. And for three, there must be a right or wrong choice to be made. That sounds like a problem. I am doomed to make a choice regardless of my free will, plus I could make the wrong choice. See where freedom appears lost? Moving on, your opinion is interesting in the fact that you believe in God, yet claim to have separated yourself from religion. In that case, where does God exist as important outside of religion (the main point of my original post). Finally, if God requires nothing then I say this: "Apparently he does not yet have my choice, so he does not have everything." I look forward to a response on this.

"These behaviors (worship, obey, serve) are the behaviors historically demanded by their subjects by monarchs"

... (in addition) And today's religions, governments, and militaries, not to mention society.

"'That Is' is exactly that: all that is. He, therefore wants, or lacks, nothing---by definition."

Then I ask you this, "why do we lack almost everything we desire?" If God has everything, why deny us anything? Incase you haven't noticed, the world is harsh, futile, and lacking. If this is everything God has to offer, I'd like to give it back. By definition, God should be able to do a better job. So why doesn't He?

"It is 'love', and from 'love' comes true insight into the 'real' nature and character of G-d and His true desire and purpose for each of us."

So what is love? Last I heard, love is defined as a form of desire... a desire for something you want, whether you can or cannot have it. This assumes that humans are objects and not subjects. We cannot always have what we love. That makes me assume, once again, that God has entered a flaw into the creation of this universe (assuming He even exists). The so-called "real nature and character" of God have nothing to do with this existence. That means we are either mistakes, or we are in Hell. Can you derive a different conclusion?

"Sad."

It truly is.

We'll talk about the idea of God's "desire and purpose for each of us" after we've resolved a few of these more important issues.


Netchicken:
"However the mistake in your argument is thinking that what you do now ends now. The effects of your actions now are 'lived out' AFTER you die."

How can anyone be certain of that. I knew a pastor who died from a heartattack, was revived after being dead for around 8 minutes, and "lived" to tell about it. He said that nothing happened while he was dead. If I were him, I'd be scared for many reasons (assuming "nothing" happened). If you are asserting that I will go to Hell for a bad choice, then choice itself truly is what we are cursed with. On the other hand, how can we assume that a life of slavery (not having choice) is better or worse? Both options are terrible options if punishment is a certainty. So if there is no afterlife, then does God even matter? I'd say, "No." If there is an afterlife, is it necessary that we are punished?

"Still following God does bring a blessing, and although you may go through life not noticing any effects of the wrongs you are doing you will also not notice the blessings or good things that you are missing out on."

I object. The witness is using hear-say. You should not assume that good things will happen to me just because I'm a good person. Mother Theresa spent her life helping others and how many times has she broken into a spell of laughter and joy? Her life of "service," although noble, seems to have carried very little personal reward (on a visible scale). For that matter, are we hedonistic (require pleasure and avoid pain)? Do we need blessings for good deeds, or should we just do them because they are "good?" Yet another delima is before us.

"Also the quality of your life "may" be better when you follow God, not many Chirsitians commit suicide, as you are strenghtened and protected through the hard times."

I cannot agree with that, either. You have "people" who support you through hard times, but does God support you through hard times? Last I knew, God just added to my problems. This discussion is difficult. Think of the questions I have raised in 2 posts... just 2. God lends to the difficulty, if you ask me. God seems to be the temptation and not the solution... the question and not the answer.

"So what you are missing out on now through your actions and what you will miss out on in the future are far greater than the 'freedom' you think you are experiencing living as you do."

Again, you are asserting a punishment for a "wrong" answer or "wrong" belief. But who has the "right" answers? Surely you don't expect me to assume that of all the people in the world that you are "the one" who holds the key? Also, you are assuring me that I am not free to choose and I am not free in life. Are we slaves? Are we in Hell? These are serious matters and serious issues. Can you honestly look around you and think, "If I were to make a world, it would be just like this one?"

"Tell me how you know that eternity does not exist."

Tell me how you know that it does. You are not dead. Secondly, I could almost bet you that you do not remember anything from before you were born. I believe the question falls right back to you.



Now, I want everyone to prove me wrong. Good luck.

---- Extreme Questions ----
1) Are the questions more important than the answers?
2) If we are already dead or in Hell, what choices do we have left to make?
3) If we are flawed and/or God is flawed, what purpose is left in having life?

Religion is based . . . mainly upon fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.

Originally posted by Nightwalker
Ummm, Your full of Shi*. Ok now I'm done with the name calling..

I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do.
D. Dale Gulledge

Religion is man.
It is the tool we use to guide our lives in what we see as the morally right direction.

Without it, there is a good chance we would have destroyed ourselves. With it, we are destroying ourselves.

We need to adapt religion. It has to change if we are to survive.

Religion is only based on fear because we made it so. We interpreted religion. If God was involved at all, he only gave us clues. He left us to work out the rest for ourselves.

I don't like organised religion because I feel that no Church has ever managed to adapt it's interpretations without causing harm to others.
I respect those who hold their beliefs to be true though.

To me religion is a motivator. If used properly it can actually bring about what it claims to be able to do - even if you don't believe in it.

God doesnt matter, whenever 1 prays to god for help does he help? take 911 for example all those poor ppl who perished in the towers were probably praying for gods help but to no avail.

I think most of you are mising the point of this post. It's not about religion, but about God itself.

I dont have enough time right now to post my thoughts , but will later after i give it some more thought.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Protector, in some ways you are right, no you won't be struck by lightening if you curse God or break a moral law. Thats easy enough to see.

However the mistake in your argument is thinking that what you do now ends now. The effects of your actions now are 'lived out' AFTER you die.

So if you live wrong now, you will not notice it, however the bible clearly shows in numerous places that the consequences of your actions are felt after death.


Still following God does bring a blessing, and although you may go through life not noticing any effects of the wrongs you are doing you will also not notice the blessings or good things that you are missing out on.

Also the quality of your life "may" be better when you follow God, not many Chirsitians commit suicide, as you are strenghtened and protected through the hard times.

So what you are missing out on now through your actions and what you will miss out on in the future are far greater than the "freedom" you think you are experiencing living as you do.

That pretty much sums up what I think. If God didn't give us the free will to choose our beleifs, He would have to be a tyrant, which would be evil......which wouldn't work

Originally posted by chebob

Originally posted by Netchicken
Protector, in some ways you are right, no you won't be struck by lightening if you curse God or break a moral law. Thats easy enough to see.

However the mistake in your argument is thinking that what you do now ends now. The effects of your actions now are 'lived out' AFTER you die.

So if you live wrong now, you will not notice it, however the bible clearly shows in numerous places that the consequences of your actions are felt after death.


Still following God does bring a blessing, and although you may go through life not noticing any effects of the wrongs you are doing you will also not notice the blessings or good things that you are missing out on.

Also the quality of your life "may" be better when you follow God, not many Chirsitians commit suicide, as you are strenghtened and protected through the hard times.

So what you are missing out on now through your actions and what you will miss out on in the future are far greater than the "freedom" you think you are experiencing living as you do.

That pretty much sums up what I think. If God didn't give us the free will to choose our beleifs, He would have to be a tyrant, which would be evil......which wouldn't work

Nothing wrong with being a tyrant sometimes being a tyrant works.

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by drunk]

Originally posted by AF1
I think most of you are mising the point of this post. It's not about religion, but about God itself.

Religion is the point though.

I believe religion as we use it at this point in history, blocks our view of God.

The question "Does God Matter" can't be answered until we see Him.